Wagendorpgate [Rabobank and Humanplasma]

[luckyboy]

No news, but apparently there will be a doping scandal story in a Dutch newspaper tomorrow. Looks like Bert Wagendorp will be the author.

 

[Ferminal]

Just saying that doping was going on at Rabo, and bring up Vienna again?

Hardly groundbreaking.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

At least we know Rabo is clean this year. Based on their results and all.

 

[Grilled]

Theo de Rooy is allegedly to spill some beans about Raas, so I hear.

Complete speculation, but it's what made it past my desk.

 

[thehog]

I heard some bitter ex-teammates looking for a book deal spill the beans. They have no credibility. There's no doping in cycling.

 

[luckyboy]

Just saying that doping was going on at Rabo, and bring up Vienna again?

Hardly groundbreaking.

Oh, that's it? Sucks

 

[Polish]

Maybe it is some PDM news. Better late than never?
Anyways, doping stories from the 90's never get old.

 

[Havetts]

Yep its an article about Vienna, Matschinger has decided to talk to the Volkskrant. Theo de Rooij doesnt deny even anything in the slightest, hes saying: "If the riders were sent to Vienna it was well thought through by the medical staff".

 

[The Hitch]

At least we know Rabo is clean this year. Based on their results and all.

Brilliant as always

 

[Race Radio]

Dekker gave extensive information to WADA about Rabo pushing doping. Expect that to be part of it

 

[MacRoadie]

Maybe it is some PDM news. Better late than never?
Anyways, doping stories from the 90's never get old.

Pathetic...

 

[Bala Verde]

Some updates from a dutch forum(time change and all, the publication might have become available to subscribers online)

Quote from the article:

Volgens De Rooy was het de verantwoordelijkheid van elke renner om te bepalen hoe ver hij wilde gaan op medisch gebied. Hij ontkent dat doping is aangemoedigd of betaald door de ploegleiding. Doping was officieel niet toegestaan.

According to de rooy, it was the responsibility of each rider to determine how far he wanted to push it 'medically'. He denies that doping was encouraged or paid for by the team. Doping was officially prohibited.

Here is a link to screenshots from the Dutch article.

http://wielrennen.startpagina.nl/prikbord/read.php?3313,15445986,15446348#msg-15446348

Quick translation of headline and intro

Doping tolerated by rabobank

At the country's most well known cycling team, doping was common, as long as it happened in a controlled way.

Since the foundation in 1996 the use of doping was tolerated By the rabobank team at least up until 2007. The choice for peds was mainly the responsibility of the cyclist. The team doctor ensured that he health of the rider wouldn't be jeopardized. This appears from the newspaper's investigation, during which we spoke with numerous protagonists from then

I guess that could be the end of the sponsorship by rabobank, and most certainly has to get the team doctor(s) and breukink fired or make them retire.

The other source is matshiner, who reveals/confirms that boogerd was one of his customers (which boogerd denies again after they contacted him.. Sure, whatever) and he refuses to name one other Dutch rider/sporter who had his blood stored in Vienna.

I am guessing because he is still actively riding, and in the past names that circulated were weening and t dekker.

De rooy leans heavily on the medical staff who 'ensured the proper administration of the peds', which seems to imply, in the context of another paragraph, that it was for health as well as pr reasons (ie not to get popped)

He said:

Als je om je heen een aantal kundige mensen hebt die de signalen van die renners goed oppakken, dan kun je afremmen en bijsturen

If you surround yourself with a number of qualified people who can detect/interpret the [medical?] signs of riders, it'll allow you to slow them down and correct them.

De rooy admits that he reprimanded riders because they wanted to bypass the team and organise their own 'medical' treatment. Rasmussen wasn't the first one whom he had to suspend ie not allowing them to start/participate in certain races.

He also said they never took 'irresponsible risks', but "even when it comes to 'medical' treatment, you will have to push the envelope a bit."

 

[MarkvW]

Some updates from a dutch forum(time change and all, the publication might have become available to subscribers online)

Quote (unreferenced) from that forum



According to de rooy, it was the responsibility of each rider to determine how far he wanted to push it 'medically'. He denies that doping was encouraged or paid for by the team. Doping was officially prohibited.

Here is a link to screenshots from the Dutch article.

http://wielrennen.startpagina.nl/prikbord/read.php?3313,15445986,15446348#msg-15446348

Some quick excerpts


I guess that could be the end of the sponsorship by rabobank, and most certainly has to get the team doctor(s) and breukink fired or make them retire.

Institutionalized deniability.

 

[sniper]

So the dutch press are turning into germans. just out to destroy cycling. smear campagne. looking behind while they should be looking forward.

Is rasmussen's case against rabo still running in the background?
this could be good news for him.

 

[WillemS]

I know I am going to get flamed for making this remark, but we now 'know' that the era of cycling wasn't exactly clean. Mind you, I don't want to imply that it's clean now, but, for now, I want to leave that debate out of my reply.

While I think Rabobank seriously violated doping laws, as far as I can see, given the statements, they didn't organize their own doping program. They acknowledged the fact that riders dope and took the responsibility to look after them medically instead of turning a blind eye and lose any control over the medical condition of their riders.

At the same time, I think that even De Rooij knows that officially prohibiting and officially not recommending doping is actually out of the questions. By tolerating the use, by giving medical assistance, you create an environment or 'culture' in which doping is seen as normal. You can always claim that you set the official rules against it, but what's that worth? The only minor claim that speak to Rabobank's advantage is that they didn't organize the doping use, but by allowing riders to use and to guide them in their use almost makes sure that riders are going to create a quasi-team program by talking to each other.

I hope that some of those now at the management level of the team are leaving, Breuking is a rider who himself comes directly from the most doping-laden period of cycling, the introduction of EPO. No doubt that he himself thinks of doping as something that is normal in the sports and in the peleton. Although the latter is mere speculation, the statements of De Rooy seem to support that view. I hope it's different now, but given that the same people are still there, I won't believe that just like that.

Oh, and by the way, isn't it typical for Dutch to prohibit something via the rules and then decide to tolerate it? It's marijuana all over again.


Oh, and one more thing about Breuking, if he denies it straight away, I'll never have trust in the man again. I hope that finally someone starts telling the truth.

 

[Lanark]

I guess that could be the end of the sponsorship by rabobank, and most certainly has to get the team doctor(s) and breukink fired or make them retire.

The team docter from that period already left, Geert Leinders. He works for Team Sky now

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Just saying that doping was going on at Rabo, and bring up Vienna again?

Hardly groundbreaking.

yep... lots of old news. Only some confirmation by De Rooy. But we already knew.

 

[Kwibus]

The team docter from that period already left, Geert Leinders. He works for Team Sky now

Doping @ Sky would be hardly surprising isn't it?

Kick out all the people that flourished in the epo period is the best solution, but impossible to do.

I hope Rabobank sticks to cycling, but good god the cyclists make it hard for the sponsors to stay around. I guess they want to get rid of all the sponsors.

 

[Arnout]

I hope that some of those now at the management level of the team are leaving, Breuking is a rider who himself comes directly from the most doping-laden period of cycling, the introduction of EPO. No doubt that he himself thinks of doping as something that is normal in the sports and in the peleton. Although the latter is mere speculation, the statements of De Rooy seem to support that view. I hope it's different now, but given that the same people are still there, I won't believe that just like that.

In defense of Breukink, and I'm not a fan by any means (very, very far from that, actually), is that his results in the 90s were dreadful, compared to his earlier promise.

Anyway, as far as I understand it, the article doesn't bring a lot of new info, indeed the confession(?) by De Rooij, other than that, nothing.

The move by Thomas Dekker from Rabobank to Lotto does become interesting again though, he didn't want to talk about it at all and his later confession indicated that he doped multiple times in his Rabo career but wanted to leave it behind him. For some reason, it also spoiled his relationship with Rabobank.

 

[theyoungest]

There's literally no news in the article, just Theo de Rooij's rather ambiguous comments about medical care in cycling always operating on the edge, just like all of cycling is always operating on the edge.

I don't even know why this article made the front page, other than the Dutch media's constant obsession with Rabo-bashing. They really do not seem to rest until Rabobank actually ends its sponsorship, and then? Celebrate, I guess.

 

[bianchigirl]

So will we see a robust statement by Dave Brailsford & a cutting of ties with a known doping doctor or just another limp 'it's so hard to get the staff these days' shoulder shrug?

 

[Benotti69]

Dekker gave extensive information to WADA about Rabo pushing doping. Expect that to be part of it

Not enough to satisfy Vroomen though.

 

[Benotti69]

Doping @ Sky would be hardly surprising isn't it?

Plenty of doping people at Sky, from Sean Yates to Leinders

Kick out all the people that flourished in the epo period is the best solution, but impossible to do.

Starting with the UCI would be the best place. The federation basically enables it all.

I hope Rabobank sticks to cycling, but good god the cyclists make it hard for the sponsors to stay around. I guess they want to get rid of all the sponsors.

This is the craziest thing of all about cycling. They (riders to the UCI) seem to have absolutely no regard for the sport's image as a doping sport as viewed by the general population.

The PR has gotten so bad that we are told every few years the sport is cleaner than ever and yet we constantly see riders being popped, soigneurs caught, doping doctors still employed by teams etc etc etc. the whole merry-go-round just moves slightly, but the rides are still as dangerous as before operated by dodgy idiots with scant regard for anything except getting in the money. A new lick of paint every year to cover the cracks.

 

[Kwibus]

Plenty of doping people at Sky, from Sean Yates to Leinders



Starting with the UCI would be the best place. The federation basically enables it all.



This is the craziest thing of all about cycling. They (riders to the UCI) seem to have absolutely no regard for the sport's image as a doping sport as viewed by the general population.

The PR has gotten so bad that we are told every few years the sport is cleaner than ever and yet we constantly see riders being popped, soigneurs caught, doping doctors still employed by teams etc etc etc. the whole merry-go-round just moves slightly, but the rides are still as dangerous as before operated by dodgy idiots with scant regard for anything except getting in the money. A new lick of paint every year to cover the cracks.

All you've said I agree on. It's depressing really.
Sometimes I really wonder why the hell I still support these guys, but then again I'm just too in love with this sport and I don't want to be too naive as well. There will always be cheaters and aslong as they can't trace the doping a lot will use it, if it's only because others were doing it as well... they have to do it as well.

It's just so commonly accepted in the peloton that it's ridiculous.

 

[hrotha]

So it would seem Rabobank worked kinda like pre-Freiburg T-Mobile. Makes sense.

"But when it comes to medical care, you need to find the limit. You can't say you risk your life (in dangerous descents, for example, ed.), but when it comes to medical care, it does not matter. Then you're not an athlete? For me it has always risen: the health and well being of the rider on short and long term.”

You guys need a Dutch-English translator.