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Walsh's evidence would be welcome

Aug 17, 2009
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David Walsh are you there? I'm reading your quote the website saying "The passport seemed like a good idea, but I don't believe that the system can catch the sophisticated cheater. The evidence we have so far is that the guys toward the winning end of the classification in big races are still significantly ahead of the UCI's checks."

What do you mean by that final sentence? What is that evidence?

I'm in your territory by the way, thinking 90% of riders are doping....and that they make up the bottom 10% when it comes to the result sheets
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Gaul 58 said:
David Walsh are you there? I'm reading your quote the website saying "The passport seemed like a good idea, but I don't believe that the system can catch the sophisticated cheater. The evidence we have so far is that the guys toward the winning end of the classification in big races are still significantly ahead of the UCI's checks."

What do you mean by that final sentence? What is that evidence?

I'm in your territory by the way, thinking 90% of riders are doping....and that they make up the bottom 10% when it comes to the result sheets

Sensationalism needs no evidence.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Gaul 58 said:
David Walsh are you there? I'm reading your quote the website saying "The passport seemed like a good idea, but I don't believe that the system can catch the sophisticated cheater. The evidence we have so far is that the guys toward the winning end of the classification in big races are still significantly ahead of the UCI's checks."

What do you mean by that final sentence? What is that evidence?

To start, try Stefan Matschiner's confession that he tested Kohl's blood at WADA approved laboratories to see whether Kohl's results would be within the normal reference ranges.
 
Oh, how about the fact that even a "clean" rider such as Brad Wiggins has his hct values actually go up in the third week of the Tour.

Just read through this section of the site, you'll soon find more.

B.Rasmussen said:
Post your troll material about doping in The Clinic please.

"Troll". Whatever. This place should be renamed the "Reality Forum".
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Oh, how about the fact that even a "clean" rider such as Brad Wiggins has his hct values actually go up in the third week of the Tour.

Just read through this section of the site, you'll soon find more.



"Troll". Whatever. This place should be renamed the "Reality Forum".
we really should get hold of Kohl of 2008 and compare it to Wiggins of 2009.

I don't think Wiggins would have got the two intra-tour transfusions Kohl did, but there is still the anomaly of his rising crit, that had to be O2 drug or transfusion with dissipating plasma.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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There is a simple scientific explanation for Wiggins' increased hematocrit value in the third week of the TDF.

Hematocrit values are expressed as a ratio or percentage as such:

PCV (Packed Cell Volume), hematocrit: A laboratory test to monitor relative number of red blood cells present in the blood. A blood sample is placed in a tiny glass tube and spun in a centrifuge. The cells are heavier than the plasma and are compacted at one end of the tube. After the tube is spun, it is examined and the packed cell volume is determined as the percentage of the red cellular portion relative to the total amount of blood in the tube (i.e. remainder being the plasma).

Thus, an increase in blood cell volume or a decrease in blood plasma volume will each yield an elevated hematocrit value.

The following abstract explains and measures decreased plasma volume in test subjects following cardiovascular exercise:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1767519

Wiggins elevated hematocrit value of 0.8% is well within the realm of possibility of normal, considering that a decrease in plasma volume of 1.7% has been measured in test subjects after only 60 minutes of moderate cardiovascular exercise.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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B.Rasmussen said:
Wrong forum. Post your troll material about doping in The Clinic please.

I'm new to this forum concept...so please bear with me as I need to ask you what you mean by the word "troll". It seems to infer that contributors to all the other threads forums are effectively signed up the the "omerta" mentality.... but just guessing here.... so put me right if I'm reading you wrong.
 
Gaul 58 said:
I'm new to this forum concept...so please bear with me as I need to ask you what you mean by the word "troll". It seems to infer that contributors to all the other threads forums are effectively signed up the the "omerta" mentality.... but just guessing here.... so put me right if I'm reading you wrong.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussi
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Gaul 58 said:
I'm new to this forum concept...so please bear with me as I need to ask you what you mean by the word "troll". It seems to infer that contributors to all the other threads forums are effectively signed up the the "omerta" mentality.... but just guessing here.... so put me right if I'm reading you wrong.

I think you placed this in the Professional forum when it should have went into the doping forum, before the moderators moved it.

Someone wasn't feeling so good about themselves today, so they decided to take it out on you with their comments. Happens a lot.
 
A

Anonymous

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Personally, I want to see Wiggins' Testosterone levels throughout the tour. Are those values posted?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Personally, I want to see Wiggins' Testosterone levels throughout the tour. Are those values posted?
I want to know why we see certain photos on Garmin's photostream, like the Wiggins at Roubaix, which accentuates his thinness. To me, it looks like their communications strategy is to create a narrative and justify a future result.

Wiggins weight loss = GC miracles.

Well, what about Wiggins at max power when he had all the weight? Where were the chrono results then, where were his results in the Flemish classics. He had the anaerobic from the teams pursuit, to jump up those bergs in the Ronde, he should have had the weight to fly over the cobbles in Roubaix with his much vaunted power.

The fanbois like to invoke his focus on the track, and his great work ethic and eye for detail for the pursuit. But then in the same voice, they say, oh, he got pis$ed at his local, he was not committed to the road, it was all about the track. But this ignores that he rode 2006 leaving behind the track, and committed himself 100%. But there were no results, of a rider who has the calibre to win the Tour, which is the line Wiggins himself and JV are touting. Miracles don't just happen.

I would prefer them to be quiet, and humble, and not to pronounce such myth, that their big hitters are on bread and water, albeit, gluten free bread.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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blackcat said:
To me, it looks like their communications strategy is to create a narrative and justify a future result.

Wow. This sentence alone makes me want to take some time off, and I didn't even dream it up!
 
Jul 16, 2009
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taken from a french anti doping site and translated. make your own mind up

Lance Armstrong

1995:
He began to see Dr. Michele Ferrari but speak openly in 2001, just before the "Sunday Times" will reveal this.
1996:
He won the Fleche Wallone but announcement on October 9, be suffering from testicular cancer metastasized. It is the brain operated on 24 October.
October 27, takes place the famous scene from the hospital in Indiana when, questioned by a doctor, he admitted, in the presence of Lisa Shiels, then his fiancée, Chris Carmichael and his companion, Stephanie McIlvain, Betsy and Frankie Andreu Kramar (future Betsy Andreu) avoit used for EPO, the hormone of growth, cortisone, steroids and testosterone. Frankie and Betsy Andreu testify under oath at trial SCA Promotions.
1998:
Healed, he took the competition in February, 518 days after the announcement of his illness. He finished 4th in particular of the Tour of Spain.
1999:
He encourages his teammate Frankie Andreu, who refuses to consult Dr Ferrari.
He won for the first time the Tour de France after the Festina. It is illustrated lecture in the mal-informed Christophe Bassoons. It must be said that this formidable opponent was as a clean rider. " As it was the only one!

More unfortunate still, he tested positive for steroids during the Tour de France. It has probably been surprised by the implementation of the detection of steroids, announced only days earlier. Presented, in hindsight, a medical certificate issued by Luis Del Moral, the doctor in the U.S. Postal enable it to evade the sanctions (in contradiction with Article 43 of the Rules of the UCI, which states that the medical certificate must be submitted at the time of inspection). The incident is unfortunate for a rider who, when questioned on the subject a few days before the revelation, not stubbornly argued receive no special medical prescription, what was not yet TUEs. (To read more about it: click here).
Finally, in 2005 we learn that EPO was traveling in his arteries during this Tour de France.
2000:
During the Tour de France, he won again, a team from France 3 films by management of the U.S. Postal team get rid of syringes and medicines (including Actovegin). A preliminary inquiry will be opened by the prosecutor of Paris, but it will lead to a non-place.
At the end of the Tour, Armstrong, Livingston and Hamilton will contribute to provide a Rolex on Dr. Ferrari.
Another major expense, he made a donation of about 25 000 dollars to the UCI to help in its fight against doping. The UCI cash the check without finding anything to say. In other circles it is called "smooth social relations" ...
The same year he won the Grand Prix of Nations, one of the few races he will win out of the Tour de France which he devoted himself almost exclusively.
2000:
Just before the publication of an article in the magazine "Sunday Times", it proves to be followed by Dr Michele Ferrari since 1995. He chose to visit the controversial Italian doctor in preparation for the world record time, record that it does not address. In his book It's not just the bike into life, published in 2000, Armstrong "forgets" to talk about this collaboration. No matter: he won the Tour de France and Tour de Suisse
2002:
He won the Dauphiné Libéré and the Tour de France for which he is surrounded by four teammates who have been or will be later involved in doping cases: Roberto Heras, Benoit Joachim, Floyd Landis and Pavel Padrnos.
2003:
He won the Tour de France's fastest in history and the Dauphiné Libéré. It also takes the time to deal Simeoni a liar. The rash had dared to testify against Dr. Ferrari. The two men set themselves to court each other for libel. After more than two years of proceedings, they finally lay the sponge. The settlement account will remain there.
2004:
He became the first rider to win 6 Tours de France. For this feat he received the 2004 award of the Academy of Sports. Academics may not have read a bestseller this summer "LA Confidential". Or have confused with a book by James Ellroy ...
Previously, Armstrong has managed to halt a dangerous escape from which Fillipo Simeoni, which pointed to the 114th place, just 2 hours 42. Fortunately, the price of a superhuman effort, the dangerous Italian was taken over by the glorious American. Diplomatic relations, good, between Italy and the United States, were not affected.
Based on the book "LA Confidential", the insurance company SCA Promotions refused to pay him $ 5 million it owed him for 5th win in the Tour. Forced to go look elsewhere for revenue comfortable Lance Armstrong $ 150,000 bill for his performance speaker (according to La France Cycliste August 2004).
2005:
Off just before the conquest of a 7th victory in the Tour De France, he was placed under investigation in France for libel in what is now called the Armstrong-Simeoni case. The case will end with an amicable agreement. The U.S. would have paid 100,000 Simeoni, which would be bound by a confidentiality agreement.
Also in France, a preliminary investigation for suspected doping is opened by the prosecutor of Annecy.
Fortunately, the leadership of the Tour de France does not apply the rule that prevailed in 2004 and wanted any rider involved in a court case was excluded from the Tour ... The way is then free to allow it to rise for the 7th time on the highest step of the podium in Paris. 7 wins (or 6 for those who are not that of 1999) can be a man apart. During the press conference following the arrival, he said: "We have the best team, best coaches, the best trainers, best doctors." Normally, he does not know yet that the newspaper L'Equipe preparing a resounding scoop that will establish it was doped with EPO on the Tour in 1999.
On 27 October, the Foundation announced a donation of $ 1.5 million to fund a chair in oncology led by Dr. Einhorn who had treated Armstrong in 1996. Coincidence of timing, two days earlier, Frankie Andreu testified in the case of SCA Promotions to recount the episode in which Armstrong had allegedly confessed to using doping products. Episode that took place at the hospital in Indiana where officie Dr. ... Einhorn.
2006:
While the International Cycling Union made stunts for the laundering suspicions of doping during the Tour de France 1999, the "french tabloid" The World refait his. It reveals that, in the trial between Armstrong to the insurance company SCA Promotions, witnesses have sworn they heard the U.S. declare its oncologists taking erythropoietin (...), growth hormones, steroids anabolic steroids and testosterone. (Click here to read the article in the World).
This does not prevent them from embarking on a career as a comedian. First, he seeks the head of **** Pound, the President of the World Anti-Doping Agency, guilty for taking a joke to the "independent" that the innocent in the doping case of the Tour de France 1999 . Then, after the final World Cup football team lost by France, he said on American sports channel ESPN: "All their players [french] have tested positive ... as holes *** ". It was humor, claim there a few days later. Finally, about his former team-mate at U.S. Postal, Floyd Landis, tested positive for testosterone at the Tour de France 2006, he said: "If we had had the slightest suspicion on the fact that it can be a cheater, we would have parted from him before. " Humor always ...
2007:
Earlier this year, he continued his crusade anti-LNDD alongside Floyd Landis and repeats that he does not trust the french laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry. In September, the announcement of the suspension of Floyd Landis, he abandoned his compatriot in the open countryside, refusing to comment: it no longer cycling that far. We had seen on the Tour de France Alberto Contador to support ... Not close to a contradiction, he said a few days later, about the work of LNDD: "When you impose the death penalty to someone, what they essentially did, you can not tolerate a bad quality, they have clearly done.
2008:
He launched the site Livestrong.com, a site for profit, without fear of making the shade at the site of its founding Livestrong.org.
The brand Trek filed a court request to terminate its contract with Greg LeMond which it sells the bikes. Trek him about his criticism of Lance Armstrong. The fact that John Burke, owner of Trek, is a friend of Lance Armstrong is doubtless for nothing.
2009:
He accepted however unconditionally the decision of the UCI, sitting on Regulation allows him to make his return in January, without waiting the six months observation regulatory program location. Chose promise, chose due, they say, but the website that was to follow the results of doping controls in place with Don Catlin was not always in line before the Tour Down Under. A few weeks later, in mid February, the U.S. said it would simply give up and control program in place in Astana. Unfulfilled promise for those who wanted to copy to show his return to the platoons. Exit is the promise of public communication of monitoring results as well as freezing of the samples. Armstrong does not finally lost confidence in the freezer Catlin as those of the AFLD.
On 17 March he was removed for 20 minutes at an unannounced doping control. The AFLD however decided not to open proceedings against him.
Four months later, he completed the Tour de France in third place.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Oh, how about the fact that even a "clean" rider such as Brad Wiggins has his hct values actually go up in the third week of the Tour.

Just read through this section of the site, you'll soon find more.



"Troll". Whatever. This place should be renamed the "Reality Forum".

This was posted in the Professional road racing forum (ie the wrong one) by a first time poster in a confrontational tone. The post has "troll" written all over it.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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David Suro said:
There is a simple scientific explanation for Wiggins' increased hematocrit value in the third week of the TDF.

Hematocrit values are expressed as a ratio or percentage as such:

PCV (Packed Cell Volume), hematocrit: A laboratory test to monitor relative number of red blood cells present in the blood. A blood sample is placed in a tiny glass tube and spun in a centrifuge. The cells are heavier than the plasma and are compacted at one end of the tube. After the tube is spun, it is examined and the packed cell volume is determined as the percentage of the red cellular portion relative to the total amount of blood in the tube (i.e. remainder being the plasma).

Thus, an increase in blood cell volume or a decrease in blood plasma volume will each yield an elevated hematocrit value.

The following abstract explains and measures decreased plasma volume in test subjects following cardiovascular exercise:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1767519

Wiggins elevated hematocrit value of 0.8% is well within the realm of possibility of normal, considering that a decrease in plasma volume of 1.7% has been measured in test subjects after only 60 minutes of moderate cardiovascular exercise.

Its a simple explanation. And there is also a simple answer to end this speculation: include total protein in the profile so we know if dehydration-induced reductions in plasma volume are responsible for elevated hematocrits. Simple.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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the truth. said:
taken from a french anti doping site and translated. make your own mind up

2008:
He launched the site Livestrong.com, a site for profit, without fear of making the shade at the site of its founding Livestrong.org.
The brand Trek filed a court request to terminate its contract with Greg LeMond which it sells the bikes. Trek him about his criticism of Lance Armstrong. The fact that John Burke, owner of Trek, is a friend of Lance Armstrong is doubtless for nothing.
I have learned that there are two different types of anti-doping crusaders. There are those who care about the sport and the health of it........probably just about everyone. And there are those who use the platform to describe their frustration and displeasure at having Lance Armstrong, the person, in cycling.

That information you posted might as well be an anti-Armstrong site when it cites 'low-points' of Armstrong that have nothing to do with doping.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Elapid's suggestion to include plasma protein profile in addition to hematocrit value would serve to rule in or rule out the effects of dehydration on hematocrit value. The test is performed routinely on medical patients. It is inexpensive and reliable.

Looking at just one value when interpreting bloodwork is a common error. A complete blood profile is often needed in order to make a definitive statement ragarding diagnosis or allegation of the use of PED's.

When Tyler Hamilton was found to be receiving transfusions from another individual due to the fact that his sample was found to contain two different blood types, I was surprised. Blood typing is one fo the easiest tests to perform, but it is rarely (if ever) mentioned by those performing doping controls. Sometimes, the most routine tests on blood can reveal the most telling evidence.
 
Jul 16, 2009
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Gaul 58 said:
David Walsh are you there? I'm reading your quote the website saying "The passport seemed like a good idea, but I don't believe that the system can catch the sophisticated cheater. The evidence we have so far is that the guys toward the winning end of the classification in big races are still significantly ahead of the UCI's checks."

What do you mean by that final sentence? What is that evidence?

I'm in your territory by the way, thinking 90% of riders are doping....and that they make up the bottom 10% when it comes to the result sheets

Gaul stay with us, read up other threads in here, excuse these clowns on their period.
The question read fair, but sadly we’ve seen that first posters that don’t introduce themselves and ask what appear to be bated questions “SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE” are sadly not what we hope you are- in genuinely interested cycling fans

Stay with us, ask questions, offer thoughts, and like me you will no doubt feel 6 feet deep but enjoy all the same
 
May 6, 2009
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blackcat said:
I want to know why we see certain photos on Garmin's photostream, like the Wiggins at Roubaix, which accentuates his thinness. To me, it looks like their communications strategy is to create a narrative and justify a future result.

Wiggins weight loss = GC miracles.

Well, what about Wiggins at max power when he had all the weight? Where were the chrono results then, where were his results in the Flemish classics. He had the anaerobic from the teams pursuit, to jump up those bergs in the Ronde, he should have had the weight to fly over the cobbles in Roubaix with his much vaunted power.

The fanbois like to invoke his focus on the track, and his great work ethic and eye for detail for the pursuit. But then in the same voice, they say, oh, he got pis$ed at his local, he was not committed to the road, it was all about the track. But this ignores that he rode 2006 leaving behind the track, and committed himself 100%. But there were no results, of a rider who has the calibre to win the Tour, which is the line Wiggins himself and JV are touting. Miracles don't just happen.

I would prefer them to be quiet, and humble, and not to pronounce such myth, that their big hitters are on bread and water, albeit, gluten free bread.

So Alberto Contador in theroy could turn up next year at the Ronde van Vlaanderen next year and make Tom Boonen and Stijn Devolder his bitches as he droppes them on the Bosberg and TT to the finish at Ninove?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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craig1985 said:
So Alberto Contador in theroy could turn up next year at the Ronde van Vlaanderen next year and make Tom Boonen and Stijn Devolder his bitches as he droppes them on the Bosberg and TT to the finish at Ninove?
if he stuck on 10 kgs, probably could.

the stage Armstrong got time this year, Contador got buffeted in the crosswind and was the first rider to detach in that echelon.

So, no, there is no chance Berto at 62 kg, can cope in the cross winds in the lowlands. Wiggins was 25th in Roubaix, and not sure if he rode or dnf'ed Flanders. Perhaps did not ride.

There is a major difference between putting out power on the drops in a solo move, and tt'ing 0-45 km.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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All these internal tests and blood values are pretty much not worth the paper they're written on. It's like saying Shell Oil's environmental credentials are spotless.........based on Shell Oil's internal environmental standards. Hardly independent.

The bottom line is the UCI are not serious about cleaning up this sport. They'll throw out the occasional sacrificial lamb in order to make it look like they are doing something, but they have too much at stake to really blow out the cobwebs in the peloton. If they really wanted a clean sport they would introduce immediate pre and post stage testing and debunk the dehydration garbage spouted by pro cyclists and their doctors. Out of competition testing is next to useless as only an idiot can get caught above 50% that way. Illegal oxygen transfer should be targeted at the point where it is most of use i.e. during the stage. Waiting a few hours post stage while the riders go off for a bit of IV dilution is as dumb as it gets.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Oh, how about the fact that even a "clean" rider such as Brad Wiggins has his hct values actually go up in the third week of the Tour.

Just read through this section of the site, you'll soon find more.



"Troll". Whatever. This place should be renamed the "Reality Forum".

I could not have said it better. Alpe for WADA :)
 
blackcat said:
I want to know why we see certain photos on Garmin's photostream, like the Wiggins at Roubaix, which accentuates his thinness. To me, it looks like their communications strategy is to create a narrative and justify a future result.

Wiggins weight loss = GC miracles.

Well, what about Wiggins at max power when he had all the weight? Where were the chrono results then, where were his results in the Flemish classics. He had the anaerobic from the teams pursuit, to jump up those bergs in the Ronde, he should have had the weight to fly over the cobbles in Roubaix with his much vaunted power.

The fanbois like to invoke his focus on the track, and his great work ethic and eye for detail for the pursuit. But then in the same voice, they say, oh, he got pis$ed at his local, he was not committed to the road, it was all about the track. But this ignores that he rode 2006 leaving behind the track, and committed himself 100%. But there were no results, of a rider who has the calibre to win the Tour, which is the line Wiggins himself and JV are touting. Miracles don't just happen.

I would prefer them to be quiet, and humble, and not to pronounce such myth, that their big hitters are on bread and water, albeit, gluten free bread.

Last I checked the Ronde or Paris-Roubaix were bike races and not trainer sessions to see who had the best watts/kg. There are things called tactics, luck, instinct, experience and balls that are also "somewhat" of a factor in deciding the classics... Maybe Wiggins (and many others certainly) are lacking in those areas.

Kevin
 
Mar 13, 2009
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nslckevin said:
Last I checked the Ronde or Paris-Roubaix were bike races and not trainer sessions to see who had the best watts/kg. There are things called tactics, luck, instinct, experience and balls that are also "somewhat" of a factor in deciding the classics... Maybe Wiggins (and many others certainly) are lacking in those areas.

Kevin
Kevin, my point was, Wiggins had this natural and latent talent. But he had a different morphology.

But this morphology lent itself, to a different hitting zone. Prologues, timetrials, and the lowlands. But Wiggins palmares was decidedly thin, to the point of mediocre, even considering he rode the offseason with some World Cups and then Worlds in March.

If you compare Wiggins to someone like Greg Henderson, Hendo had a superior palmares. A few wins in Europe, a Philly pro, other podiums in Philly. Who is Hendo? Would he win the Tour? No chance. Never even made a race roster. Hendo was a world champ in the points race. Or was it scratch? He also started out as a timetrialer and pursuiter. He probably had a sub 4'20" in him, and near where his mate Roulston hit in Manchester and Beijing last year.

So, my point, Wiggins thin = Tour podium calibre. Wiggins thick, powerful and full anaerobic spectrum, where is this morphology of Wiggins' hitting zone? Where were the results from his previous morphology? A Driedaagse de Panne? Criterium International? No, no. Where? 2006? Where? Can't see any results with the bigger physique, except on the boards. But that is a small catchment, UK had marshalled resources, and focussed on the track. Two teams on bread and water, Manning, Thomas, Wiggins, Clancy, versus Mcgee, Renshaw, Roberts, Lancaster, cereris paribus, the Australians would have pumped the UK. Even the NZ team, Sergent, Roulston, Henderson, Gudsell, I reckon could have taken the UK. A German team would have won tho. Bartko (6 months younger than Manning) Greipel, Pollack, Siedler.

Track is weak depth, artificially so, because the riders get paid either to ride road, or ride 6 days. The UK get a lottery grant, and get paid to ride World Cups and the World Champs. The 6 Days are debilitating to ride a full season and earn a proper salary, and maintain the anaerobic increment for the pursuit and teams pursuit.

But put Wiggins back on the road at 80kg, why cannot he fill his palmares?
 

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