What about Contador's TDF wins in 2007 & 2009?

[airstream]

imo, for the first time in his life contador must act like a man and tell the truth himself.

 

[SiAp1984]

If Contador used doping in 2007 and 2009 (duh) and it can be proven, I want him to get a lifetime ban. I don't really care how entertaining he is or who finished in second place and now gets a 'win'.

+1 Levy Leipheimer and Johan Bruyneel should at least do one good thing for the sport and speak out about AC.

 

[Fidolix]

imo, for the first time in his life contador must act like a man and tell the truth himself.

And of course you the man to judge..

Where´s your evidence he doped in 2006, 2008, and 2009?
Oh, he beat dopestrong in 2009 tour, so pr. definition he must have been doped in 2009, and if he was doped in 2009 he also have to be doped his entire career, - that makes a lot of sense.
If he did or he didn´t nobody knows, so maybe let the evidence show up first, and then proclaim your biased opinions.

 

[hrotha]

For the sake of entertainment, I'd leave Contador alone. Do you really want to watch another Wiggins Tour win?

No, you'd leave him alone for the sake of being a hypocritical fanboy.

 

[airstream]

And of course you the man to judge..

Where´s your evidence he doped in 2006, 2008, and 2009?
Oh, he beat dopestrong in 2009 tour, so pr. definition he must have been doped in 2009, and if he was doped in 2009 he also have to be doped his entire career, - that makes a lot of sense.
If he did or he didn´t nobody knows, so maybe let the evidence show up first, and then proclaim your biased opinions.

We can open the poll and 99% of forum members would vote that Contador vastly doped in the 2007 Tour? All of them are biased?

 

[vcampbell]

As I said in the Hamilton vs Eki question, i dont like people being stripped of tiltes which are then awarded to someone else, because they fell at a hurdle the other rider did not have to jump.

Its different if Contador fails the same test Andy Schleck took, and if Contador's ds talks whereas Andy's or Evans's ds doesn't.

Especially since Andy was with frickin riis. Though the irony that Andy would win a title because Contadors current ds doesn't speak out, would be quite heavy.

+1 Intersting that no one is responding to this. So they should ban Contador but leave Baby Schleck, Evans and the others n peace? It's just hilarious how people here saying stupid things, just because they hate Contador. He doped? Probably? Andy too? Yes, probably he too! Evans?
Because of Bruyneel, everyone who was once with him is the rotten evil himself, but the others are like an angel? I try to laugh, but I can't.

 

[Cookster15]

+1 Intersting that no one is responding to this. So they should ban Contador but leave Baby Schleck, Evans and the others n peace? It's just hilarious how people here saying stupid things, just because they hate Contador. He doped? Probably? Andy too? Yes, probably he too! Evans?
Because of Bruyneel, everyone who was once with him is the rotten evil himself, but the others are like an angel? I try to laugh, but I can't.

I find it interesting that you think there is or was a level playing field and all those riders you mention had the same doping will and resources as Mr Contador. Yeh, maybe they were all doping but all the same? I very much doubt it. Popovich huge drop in performance when moving from Discovery to Lotto is one good example. Another is what we saw when 36 year old (in 2008) Chris Horner moved to Discovery? All of a sudden a good climber became a great climber - in his late 30s!

 

[hrotha]

+1 Intersting that no one is responding to this. So they should ban Contador but leave Baby Schleck, Evans and the others n peace? It's just hilarious how people here saying stupid things, just because they hate Contador. He doped? Probably? Andy too? Yes, probably he too! Evans?
Because of Bruyneel, everyone who was once with him is the rotten evil himself, but the others are like an angel? I try to laugh, but I can't.

It's very simple, really. If you're caught in the race itself, you're DQed and whoever ended 2nd wins. If you're caught through other means, 1st place should be left blank.

 

[airstream]

Yeah, to think that everyone dopes is probably the only way to justify one's support to Contador.. Honestly, I'm all for new clean sport, even if there would be necessity to change 100 main riders. Morons like Armstrong and Contador can appear in any sphere of activity, but sport is eternal.

 

[hrotha]

In light of the recent Ferrari revelations, this article by Carlos Arribas is very interesting. As always, Arribas knows much and says little, and usually with a spin, so take everything with a grain of salt.

The Gazzetta says Ferrari's services included legal assistance in case of getting caught. Arribas says Contador "inadvertently" hired a lawyer (Rocco Taminelli) and an expert hematologist (Giuseppe Banfi) from Ferrari's pool when his positive was revealed. He later ditched them, according to Arribas "perhaps because he was informed of how dangerous having his name associated with Ferrari's was".

 

[veganrob]

His own system is obviously named Pepe Marti. Anyways, for sake of sport we should hope Bruyneel will have to say everything.

That may mean your boy will go down also. Working for Riis and Bruyneel is not best endorsement of being clean.

 

[airstream]

That may mean your boy will go down also. Working for Riis and Bruyneel is not best endorsement of being clean.

No problem. At least, the system will get new riders, honest ones.

 

[veganrob]

No problem. At least, the system will get new riders, honest ones.

That is being honest.

I agree it would be very hard seeing some of the most exciting riders gone but there would be other riders, very exciting and hopefully clean come along.

 

[coinneach]

It's very simple, really. If you're caught in the race itself, you're DQed and whoever ended 2nd wins. If you're caught through other means, 1st place should be left blank.

+1

Amen to this stupid speculation

 

[Fidolix]

I find it interesting that you think there is or was a level playing field and all those riders you mention had the same doping will and resources as Mr Contador. Yeh, maybe they were all doping but all the same? I very much doubt it. Popovich huge drop in performance when moving from Discovery to Lotto is one good example. Another is what we saw when 36 year old (in 2008) Chris Horner moved to Discovery? All of a sudden a good climber became a great climber - in his late 30s!

On Festina the team payed for all the doping program, doctors, logistic etc. not the riders.
And Contador have always been a great climber and a promising TTér, so what is your logic?
You obviously believes Contador have always doped his entire career, only problem is, he were already a major talent as a kid and showed his potential in an early age, something neither Armstrong or Horner ever was, not as a potential GC rider atleast.

 

[Fidolix]

No problem. At least, the system will get new riders, honest ones.

O M G how naive you are.

 

[airstream]

were already a major talent as a kid and showed his potential in an early age, something neither Armstrong or Horner ever was, not as a potential GC rider atleast.

It testifies directly about nothing. Talent is beaten by hard work and vice versa. Who remembers talented Marcus Fothen nowadays..

Anyways, my point is more mature than yours (sort of 'stop accusing contador. he's not worse than anyone else). Because he's dirtier, more deceitful and more unscrupulous.

 

[movingtarget]

It testifies directly about nothing. Talent is beaten by hard work and vice versa. Who remembers talented Marcus Fothen nowadays..

Anyways, my point is more mature than yours (sort of 'stop accusing contador. he's not worse than anyone else)

Yes it's never that simple. And even though Horner and Armstrong may not have showed GC capabilities when young you could also say they were unknown quantities if they hadn't tried. Horner was a very talented rider when young from what I understand. Armstrong was a very talented triathlete as a junior and won the World road title at 21. As Phil Anderson said, at that stage he did not think Armstrong was going to make a good GC rider. It's always tricky trying to line up performances between riders when they are doping or not doping because it never seems to be a level playing field. It's all guesswork but there is no doubt that the best GC riders would still be competitive with or without dope. Good enough to win is another thing.

 

[roundabout]

In light of the recent Ferrari revelations, this article by Carlos Arribas is very interesting. As always, Arribas knows much and says little, and usually with a spin, so take everything with a grain of salt.

The Gazzetta says Ferrari's services included legal assistance in case of getting caught. Arribas says Contador "inadvertently" hired a lawyer (Rocco Taminelli) and an expert hematologist (Giuseppe Banfi) from Ferrari's pool when his positive was revealed. He later ditched them, according to Arribas "perhaps because he was informed of how dangerous having his name associated with Ferrari's was".

Or perhaps because Banfi failed defending Pellizotti.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Yeah I was just reading that. Rider 16 is apparently Popovych though. I guess Berto had his own system, how he was able to ride against Lance in 09.

lance 2009 wasn't as doped as he was in earlier years and not to mention how much older he was. contador was also a better natural climber than armstrong ever faced in his years, save pantani, but he was already on the way out thanks to the cocaine

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

lance 2009 wasn't as doped as he was in earlier years and not to mention how much older he was. contador was also a better natural climber than armstrong ever faced in his years, save pantani, but he was already on the way out thanks to the cocaine

She don't lie
She don't lie

 

[Fidolix]

It testifies directly about nothing. Talent is beaten by hard work and vice versa. Who remembers talented Marcus Fothen nowadays..

Anyways, my point is more mature than yours (sort of 'stop accusing contador. he's not worse than anyone else). Because he's dirtier, more deceitful and more unscrupulous.

air, you calling me immature?

I don´t think we can disagree on that Contador is probably one of the hardest working cyclists out there, so your logic makes no sense in this case atleast.

AND I¨m not making accusations that I can´t prove, and besides I think I´m a bit older and wiser than you are, but it´s just a guess.

It´s obvious your opinions are based on your own believes and not based on facts, calling Contador or for that matter anyone else for dirty, deceitful and unscrupulous without any proof is in my world being both immature and being biased.

Stick to what you know for a fact, and not what you think.

 

[Califootman]

I think there is little doubt Contador was on more than bread and water for all of those GT wins. That is why I think he needs to come clean now about it and get ahead of any future "revelations". As LA's case has shown, no matter how big/powerful you are... the truth comes out eventually.

So he would probably lose two or three more GT victories on top of the two he has already lost. He might be have only the 2012 Vuelta to his name after the admission. But what is important for Contador now is to keep cycling so he has the opportunity to win more GTs. I think he has the ability to win them "clean" (i.e., as relatively clean as the peloton is these days). If he can continue to win several more GTs in the future, those vacated victories in the past look a little better. That's one advantage Contador has over LA... he can prove himself as a "clean" GT winner to lend credibility to any previous wins where he was doping.

We're rapidly coming to the point where cycling is going to look at the recent era as a time when doping was so rife within the peloton that it is senseless to strip a title and award it to the runner up (how long do you think Scarponi is going to hold on to the 2011 Giro title?). I think it will end up more like baseball, where certain records are just going to have an asterisk by them. A lot of GT winners will have asterisks by their names, but their names will still be in the 1st place slot. The more wins Contador can gather after he has 'fessed up and rides "clean", the more those asterisks will fade from the record books.

The other reason I think Contador should come clean is to minimize the time he has to sit out from cycling. A voluntary admission brings a lot more compassion from the public than getting caught or talking only when you are cornered. We've seen a lot of sympathy (or at least some sympathy) for the US riders who confessed... how they are working to clean up the sport... how they were in some ways pressured into doping. I think Contador overall has a pretty good public image as a relatively humble, nice guy... capitalize on that and play the "little boy from Pinto" card to full effect. Tell the public that those mean team bosses forced him into it. Who wouldnt' believe that of JB after reading the USADA documents? I'm pretty sure Contador could slide by with a 6-month ban from the Spanish doping authorities (not sure if it would count as a 2nd offense since it would be prior to his clen doping). He might have to worry about WADA appealing for more, but I'm not sure they'd bother. Again, this would be the cyclist that many consider the greatest of the current era, voluntarily coming forward and opening up about his past in an effort to lead the peloton and the cycling world into the cleaner, greener pastures of a new era. Don't tell me he wouldn't get a lot of goodwill for doing that.

Will he do it? Probably not. But the risk he runs is that he will get exposed in some of the future fallout from the USADA investigation, and if he gets caught he will certainly face a longer suspension and all his past (and likely any future) palmares will be viewed much more suspiciously. What he needs to consider is where his legacy in cycling will reside. Will it be in the same category as Armstrong and Indurain ("Legends of doping"?) Or will he be able to move it more toward the cleaner legends of the sport?

 

[Fidolix]

I think there is little doubt Contador was on more than bread and water for all of those GT wins. That is why I think he needs to come clean now about it and get ahead of any future "revelations". As LA's case has shown, no matter how big/powerful you are... the truth comes out eventually.

So he would probably lose two or three more GT victories on top of the two he has already lost. He might be have only the 2012 Vuelta to his name after the admission. But what is important for Contador now is to keep cycling so he has the opportunity to win more GTs. I think he has the ability to win them "clean" (i.e., as relatively clean as the peloton is these days). If he can continue to win several more GTs in the future, those vacated victories in the past look a little better. That's one advantage Contador has over LA... he can prove himself as a "clean" GT winner to lend credibility to any previous wins where he was doping.

We're rapidly coming to the point where cycling is going to look at the recent era as a time when doping was so rife within the peloton that it is senseless to strip a title and award it to the runner up (how long do you think Scarponi is going to hold on to the 2011 Giro title?). I think it will end up more like baseball, where certain records are just going to have an asterisk by them. A lot of GT winners will have asterisks by their names, but their names will still be in the 1st place slot. The more wins Contador can gather after he has 'fessed up and rides "clean", the more those asterisks will fade from the record books.

The other reason I think Contador should come clean is to minimize the time he has to sit out from cycling. A voluntary admission brings a lot more compassion from the public than getting caught or talking only when you are cornered. We've seen a lot of sympathy (or at least some sympathy) for the US riders who confessed... how they are working to clean up the sport... how they were in some ways pressured into doping. I think Contador overall has a pretty good public image as a relatively humble, nice guy... capitalize on that and play the "little boy from Pinto" card to full effect. Tell the public that those mean team bosses forced him into it. Who wouldnt' believe that of JB after reading the USADA documents? I'm pretty sure Contador could slide by with a 6-month ban from the Spanish doping authorities (not sure if it would count as a 2nd offense since it would be prior to his clen doping). He might have to worry about WADA appealing for more, but I'm not sure they'd bother. Again, this would be the cyclist that many consider the greatest of the current era, voluntarily coming forward and opening up about his past in an effort to lead the peloton and the cycling world into the cleaner, greener pastures of a new era. Don't tell me he wouldn't get a lot of goodwill for doing that.

Will he do it? Probably not. But the risk he runs is that he will get exposed in some of the future fallout from the USADA investigation, and if he gets caught he will certainly face a longer suspension and all his past (and likely any future) palmares will be viewed much more suspiciously. What he needs to consider is where his legacy in cycling will reside. Will it be in the same category as Armstrong and Indurain ("Legends of doping"?) Or will he be able to move it more toward the cleaner legends of the sport?

I agree with you a long way down the road. But not quite.
I personally think that Contador is a kind and nice person, humble but ambitious. He has repeatedly said that Armstrong was his idol from a very early age. The fact that he ends up on the same team as Armstrong was probably his biggest mistake.
We know what a manipulative and dominant pri ck Armstrong is as a person, and it has probably not been easy to know that you as both a better person and a better cyclist, had to realize that you would have little chance of winning a grand tour race where Armstrong participated, well knowing how juiced he was.
Of course, Contador always been aware of the organized doping on Discovery during the Armstrong and JB era, also on the Astana team, but in the end it's your choice if you choose to dope, but it has certainly not been easy to say no thanks, we now know that, and being a young talent under his biggest idol, it would be almost impossible to say no.
If Contador already doped during Manolo Saiz is not a subject for me, it would all just be guessing, and not have any relevance to the facts.

The question is what is best for the sport today, how do we move forward?
Personally I think it is a minority who can say they have never doped themselves.
Will it have any positive effect if so half the peloton admitted doping?
None!
There will always be someone who does not dare to stand up, for one reason or another.
Although I do not think that Contador will come forward with concessions, for the simple reason he would then risk a lifetime ban if he did.

Will the solution be to grant amnesty to all who stand up?

Perhaps, it is certainly a possibility.
But again, personally, I have the attitude that if you're cheating then it's out, and it applies to all: riders, sports directors, masseurs, drivers or whatever you do within the sport, if you are active it¨s out.

The only solution would be to clean the UCI house out completely, even dissolve it if necessarily, We need to have complete transparency and an entire new structure.
The day riders, sponsors and the entire sport have faith to the governy body, then we can move forward, but time is essential.

 

[boladelmundo]

Carlos Arriba's article is quite interesting. He said about Dr. Ferrari reckoned that the clen found in Bertie's system was "added" by the lab who tested Bertie's blood. It seemed that the lab recognized Bertie's blood from "his steroid" and they detected PVC traces in his blood. The lab knew Bertie's was having autologus transfusion but couldn't prove what he was on.