What constitutes cheating ???

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Justinr

BANNED
Feb 18, 2013
806
0
0
ChewbaccaD said:
It wasn't an insult to your intelligence, it was an insult to your sense of ethics...:rolleyes:
I dont think you can draw that kind of conclusion from my question. I asked it because there seem to be many grey areas that warrant debate.
 
Mar 16, 2013
98
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
Research shows that people get their most restful sleep during the rem stage. The problem with sleeping pills is they sometimes disrupt normal circadian rhythms and prevent people from even getting into rem E.g. zoplicone.

Some athletes perform on very little sleep others need more. It is way too subjective to be considered other than a performance enhancing factor. Way too totalitarian!
I think you may be misinterpreting the research you've read. REM sleep is restful for the brain, or so they think, in that it allows a sort of assimilation of the past and events are filed away appropriately. It's not when the big spike in GH and other similar hormones happens that help with the more primal physical repair, though, that is during the deeper stage of sleep when the brain is not active as it is during REM. You get that big GH pulse fairly soon after initially falling asleep and going into the first cycle of deep sleep, and then you get smaller pulses of GH as your return to the deep cycle.

There are zero athletes that truly perform well on very little sleep over the long term, such as in a Grand Tour. If you're sleeping 5-6 hours a night, you aren't on the podium at a Grand Tour. For guys like Danielson who get anxious at night and can't sleep, without sleeping pills they'd be done. Plenty of others are too amped up and don't know how to calm down enough to sleep consistently either.

8-9 hours sleep versus 5-6 is a world of difference if it's day after day of a stage race.
 
red_flanders said:
By creating rules which deal with things outside the list:

1. The administration or reintroduction of any quantity of autologous, allogenic (homologous) or heterologous blood or red blood cell products of any origin into the circulatory system.
2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including, but not limited to, perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes, microencapsulated haemoglobin products), excluding supplemental oxygen.
3. Any form of intravascular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical or chemical means.
I am with you, but if you are going to have to create rules for things outside the WADA list why not lobby WADA to put them in the list rather than having two lists.

I like your premise it must be artificial enhancement because some posters on here are blurring the line between normal and artificial.

What do you mean by intramuscular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical means? My concern is natural physiological changes in the body in response to exercise already cause physiological changes in haemoglobin etc.
 
jw1979 said:
I think you may be misinterpreting the research you've read. REM sleep is restful for the brain, or so they think, in that it allows a sort of assimilation of the past and events are filed away appropriately. It's not when the big spike in GH and other similar hormones happens that help with the more primal physical repair, though, that is during the deeper stage of sleep when the brain is not active as it is during REM. You get that big GH pulse fairly soon after initially falling asleep and going into the first cycle of deep sleep, and then you get smaller pulses of GH as your return to the deep cycle.
I am not clear on what you are getting at? I am suggesting the research shows that REM is that part of each sleep cycle (approx. every 75-80 minutes) where the body is generally most at rest. The muscles are most relaxed (atonia), dreaming occurs and when one awakes after REM they are most refreshed.

So I am a little lost on what you are referring to about Growth Hormone (GH). The secretion of GH occurs in men during the 3rd stage or slow-wave-sleep (SWS) and it is really only relevant to the issue of whether there is body growth during sleep which is important to understanding child development but not adult development.

The point I was making, is that some sleeping pills affect the amount of REM sleep a person gets (zoplicone). REM accounts for about 25% of total sleep and it is longer for each successive sleep cycle. If a person cannot get into REM due to a sleeping pill they can be more tired the next day as opposed to someone who has had good REM sleep.

And your statement "it allows a sort of assimilation of the past and events are filed away appropriately" makes really no sense to me. If you are referring to the encoding and consolidation of long term memories I am not aware of any studies that find consolidation takes place specifically during REM sleep as opposed to any other state of consciousness or nonconsciousness.
 
RobbieCanuck said:
I am not clear on what you are getting at? I am suggesting the research shows that REM is that part of each sleep cycle (approx. every 75-80 minutes) where the body is generally most at rest. The muscles are most relaxed (atonia), dreaming occurs and when one awakes after REM they are most refreshed.

So I am a little lost on what you are referring to about Growth Hormone (GH). The secretion of GH occurs in men during the 3rd stage or slow-wave-sleep (SWS) and it is really only relevant to the issue of whether there is body growth during sleep which is important to understanding child development but not adult development.

The point I was making, is that some sleeping pills affect the amount of REM sleep a person gets (zoplicone). REM accounts for about 25% of total sleep and it is longer for each successive sleep cycle. If a person cannot get into REM due to a sleeping pill they can be more tired the next day as opposed to someone who has had good REM sleep.

And your statement "it allows a sort of assimilation of the past and events are filed away appropriately" makes really no sense to me. If you are referring to the encoding and consolidation of long term memories I am not aware of any studies that find consolidation takes place specifically during REM sleep as opposed to any other state of consciousness or nonconsciousness.
We're talking about physical recovery though. Athletes could give a damn if they recover their mental acuity in favor of repairing their body after the damage of training or racing.
 

Justinr

BANNED
Feb 18, 2013
806
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
I am with you, but if you are going to have to create rules for things outside the WADA list why not lobby WADA to put them in the list rather than having two lists.

I like your premise it must be artificial enhancement because some posters on here are blurring the line between normal and artificial.
I think WADA do this for the very reason that they CAN'T list everything out from a substance point of view, but they CAN from a method point of view, e.g. Actovegin. Not named but I believe caught by the 'method' (artificially increasing Oxygen uptake / delivery in Blood).
 
Mar 16, 2013
98
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
jw1979 said:
I am not clear on what you are getting at? I am suggesting the research shows that REM is that part of each sleep cycle (approx. every 75-80 minutes) where the body is generally most at rest. The muscles are most relaxed (atonia), dreaming occurs and when one awakes after REM they are most refreshed.

So I am a little lost on what you are referring to about Growth Hormone (GH). The secretion of GH occurs in men during the 3rd stage or slow-wave-sleep (SWS) and it is really only relevant to the issue of whether there is body growth during sleep which is important to understanding child development but not adult development.

The point I was making, is that some sleeping pills affect the amount of REM sleep a person gets (zoplicone). REM accounts for about 25% of total sleep and it is longer for each successive sleep cycle. If a person cannot get into REM due to a sleeping pill they can be more tired the next day as opposed to someone who has had good REM sleep.

And your statement "it allows a sort of assimilation of the past and events are filed away appropriately" makes really no sense to me. If you are referring to the encoding and consolidation of long term memories I am not aware of any studies that find consolidation takes place specifically during REM sleep as opposed to any other state of consciousness or nonconsciousness.
I think your interpretation of sleep research versus mine of what happens when we sleep is simply not close enough to have a meaningful conversation.
 
Apr 20, 2012
6,321
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
If it is not on the WADA list and is approved by a government regulatory health authority it is not banned so in the context of this thread if a cyclist takes such a substance even if it has a performance enhancing benefit it cannot be "cheating"

That's bureaucracy for you!
Designer drugs, BALCO? No doping?

jw1979 said:
Considering the vast majority of "performance enhancement" takes place when we sleep, I have to think sleeping pills are one of the biggest offenders of all.

Many riders openly admit to using sleeping pills, while many others likely don't mention it. I may be part of a very small minority, but I think that is worse than most drugs that are being pumped through these kids.
Good point. Finishing bottles and sleeping pills, good thing caffeine is no longer on the list. How can one sleep at night when they have the equivalent of 30 espressos in their body: sleeping pills.
 

Justinr

BANNED
Feb 18, 2013
806
0
0
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Designer drugs, BALCO? No doping?

Good point. Finishing bottles and sleeping pills, good thing caffeine is no longer on the list. How can one sleep at night when they have the equivalent of 30 espressos in their body: sleeping pills.
BALCO - well i guess thats where the "methods" part of the code comes in. THG was a steroid so would have worked in a similar way to named ones. It just happened to be designed not to be traceable.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Designer drugs, BALCO? No doping?
The primary drugs used in the Balco scandal were erythropoietin (EPO), human growth hormone(HGH), testosterone cream, tetrahydrogestrinone which are all on the WADA prohibited list so they are not outside designer drugs.

The other drug Balco made available to athletes was modafinil which was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration for wakefulness, therefore by virtue of Section SO. of the Prohibited List, as follows:

"Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use..."

is not a WADA prohibited drug.
 
Apr 20, 2012
6,321
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
The primary drugs used in the Balco scandal were erythropoietin (EPO), human growth hormone(HGH), testosterone cream, tetrahydrogestrinone which are all on the WADA prohibited list so they are not outside designer drugs.

The other drug Balco made available to athletes was modafinil which was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration for wakefulness, therefore by virtue of Section SO. of the Prohibited List, as follows:

"Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use..."

is not a WADA prohibited drug.
And how does that correlate with your morals regarding cheating?
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
And how does that correlate with your morals regarding cheating?
I am very comfortable with my morals. I do not believe in taking substances or using processes that artificially result in performance enhancement in all sport. See my definition of cheating at post #23 as it relates to cycling.

The problem with this thread is a lot of posters want to include as cheating substances, that are not on the WADA 2014 prohibited list. I am OK with that but the problem is where do you draw the line? IMO it is drawn between artificial and natural enhancement.

The reason a substance needs to be on the list is to ensure the rider can be sanctioned. Otherwise if we have 2,3 or 4 different lists then there is no consistency in policing PEDs and administering the WADA code.

But some posters on here are blurring the line like suggesting something ridiculous like sleep is a performance enhancement. Sleep is a natural state and if person needs a sleeping pill to get into that natural state it is not performance enhancement. A good night's sleep will naturally rest the body, especially REM sleep, and presumably maintain good levels of health for performance. Lack of sleep is a performance inhibiter.

If there is an artificial substance out there that has a measurable performance enhancing effect then write WADA and lobby to get it on the prohibited list as opposed to picking a fight with me. That would be a better use of your time. I simply tried to provide you with some accurate information about the drugs used in the Balco scandal, but it doesn't appear you are open to learning facts.
 

Justinr

BANNED
Feb 18, 2013
806
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
The primary drugs used in the Balco scandal were erythropoietin (EPO), human growth hormone(HGH), testosterone cream, tetrahydrogestrinone which are all on the WADA prohibited list so they are not outside designer drugs.

The other drug Balco made available to athletes was modafinil which was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration for wakefulness, therefore by virtue of Section SO. of the Prohibited List, as follows:

"Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use..."

is not a WADA prohibited drug.
THG is on the list now but wasnt when it was being used because no-one knew about it, that was the whole point of how it was designed. Thats where a methods thing would catch it.
 

Justinr

BANNED
Feb 18, 2013
806
0
0
RobbieCanuck said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
The primary drugs used in the Balco scandal were erythropoietin (EPO), human growth hormone(HGH), testosterone cream, tetrahydrogestrinone which are all on the WADA prohibited list so they are not outside designer drugs.

The other drug Balco made available to athletes was modafinil which was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration for wakefulness, therefore by virtue of Section SO. of the Prohibited List, as follows:

"Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use..."

is not a WADA prohibited drug.
But modafinil is on the list and has been since 2004.
 
May 27, 2012
6,458
0
0
Justinr said:
I dont think you can draw that kind of conclusion from my question. I asked it because there seem to be many grey areas that warrant debate.
I didn't, I drew it from your question and everything else you write...:rolleyes:
 
RobbieCanuck said:
Research shows that people get their most restful sleep during the rem stage. The problem with sleeping pills is they sometimes disrupt normal circadian rhythms and prevent people from even getting into rem E.g. zoplicone.

Some athletes perform on very little sleep others need more. It is way too subjective to be considered other than a performance enhancing factor. Way too totalitarian!
The bolded is a very good point. It's not just quantity, it quality of sleep. There is emerging evidence that sleep medications only help part of the problem of insomnia. As far as I know, they haven't even begun to study sleep meds' impacts on HGH release, etc.

Given how much sleep is a problem in the western world, or more specifically the lack thereof, I don't think WADA is going to fret too much about the normal sleep med market. If something were to come out that were proven to enhance sleep much more that normal and really up HGH delivery, well that's another story ...
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Finishing bottles and sleeping pills, good thing caffeine is no longer on the list. How can one sleep at night when they have the equivalent of 30 espressos in their body: sleeping pills.
I'm not sure if your joking or not, so pardon the more serious reply.

The thing with caffeine is it does not take much to disrupt sleep. A great many folks who have sleep issues are counselled to reduce caffeine intake and literally avoid it after mid afternoon. And of course, the list of other issues that could impact sleep are long - e.g. overtraining, racing in the evening, depression, stress, etc. Of course, the market of stimulant aids and performance is ridiculous - some red bull anyone :p

On another more humorous note, I was happy when caffeine went off the list because I like my coffee. Then I learned more and realized the amount of caffeine that would have been required to make me positive was also enough to make me sit on the toilet for the morning!
 

Herbstrong

BANNED
Mar 11, 2014
43
0
0
where do procedures such as lasik eye surgery, tommy john surgery, and platelet-rich plasma (PRP) therapy come in to play? These are performance enhancing and much like what was said about Armstrongs doping, not everyone can afford these procedures.
 
May 27, 2012
6,458
0
0
Herbstrong said:
where do procedures such as lasik eye surgery, tommy john surgery, and platelet-rich plasma (PRP) therapy come in to play? These are performance enhancing and much like what was said about Armstrongs doping, not everyone can afford these procedures.
I mean, yea, I was thinking that since taking cold medicine for a cold is performance enhancing, that is exactly like Armstrong's doping too...and not everybody can afford the best food, so that's exactly like Armstrong's doping too...and not everyone can afford the most expensive equipment, so that's exactly like Armstrong's doping too...I think you're on to something...
 

Herbstrong

BANNED
Mar 11, 2014
43
0
0
ChewbaccaD said:
I mean, yea, I was thinking that since taking cold medicine for a cold is performance enhancing, that is exactly like Armstrong's doping too...and not everybody can afford the best food, so that's exactly like Armstrong's doping too...and not everyone can afford the most expensive equipment, so that's exactly like Armstrong's doping too...I think you're on to something...
not sure i wrote the word "exactly" just similarly expensive and performance enhancing.
 
May 27, 2012
6,458
0
0
Herbstrong said:
not sure i wrote the word "exactly" just similarly expensive and performance enhancing.
When some dude chases down another dude and forces him back into the peloton to enforce the unwritten rules because that other dude said some bad things about the first dude's optometrist, give me a call...:rolleyes:
 

Herbstrong

BANNED
Mar 11, 2014
43
0
0
ChewbaccaD said:
When some dude chases down another dude and forces him back into the peloton to enforce the unwritten rules because that other dude said some bad things about the first dude's optometrist, give me a call...:rolleyes:
forget i mentioned armstrong.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS