What constitutes proof that a cyclist/team are doping?

[Grandillusion]

So you're saying that if a rational observer is able to conclude someone is doping, that should be enough for the authorities to bring about a sanction?

Why then are Menchov, Klöden, Scarponi, Horner etc still riding?

That would go really well in front of CAS.

The authorities are supposed to be rational people too. Travis Tygart seems eminently rational to me. And his reaction to the information his faculties were telling him was.... Mmmmm, I think I'm going to do my job, this shouldn't take me long>

 

[trailrunner]

anybody that has had surgery has had EPO in them

Not true.

I've had three surgeries in the last three years. I did not have EPO for any of those.

 

[silverrocket]

If you want to start a thread on blocking and sprinting go ahead but these two things have nothing to do with doping.

I think Cobblestoner makes a fair point. Blocking, drafting off team cars, blood transfusions, and taking PEDs are all forms of cheating.

He/she may be overlooking the fact that all those forms of cheating have penalties (time penalty, warning, suspension) based on how serious the cheating is. As for Armstrong, the evidence eventually mounted that he was not just doping, but trafficking and encouraging others to dope, and so his penalty was lifetime.

We can relate other forms of cheating to the OP. It is still cheating even if you disguise your intentions when you are blocking, or if you draft off the team car when nobody is around to see it. The question could be posed then: if the race director doesn't catch a rider blocking for another, but countless other riders come forward as witnesses, there is video evidence, and the rider has had his blocking practices investigated by authorities in the past, would that still convince you that they were cheating?

For me the answer for doping and other forms of cheating is that it is a threshold of evidence, similar to most courts, beyond which there can no longer be any "reasonable doubt" that the rider was guilty. For me I didn't reach this with Armstrong until l'Equipe reported on the retroactive EPO in the 1999 samples.

 

[thehog]

The more I read the more I realise people throw the word "proof" around but fail define what proof they're looking for or what it means in the context of doping in cycling.

Appears more like a defensive mechanism to support their favourite team. It's also a cop out from debating suspicious/suspect behaviour from their favourite team.

Disappointing. I'm still yet to learn the meaning of "proof".

 

[ebandit]

proof

fanboys are so gullible. That's how clueless they are. Personally, I think the mods should ban them. All of them. It'll save a lot of trouble. We know who they are. They are simply English versions of Polish. Tough love is needed. They think everyone is out to get their idols and them alone. So beyond ridiculous it isn't funny ect...............

there's proof that some posters take themselves way too seriously....

............at least polish was funny

over at velo news they started a thread.........'why usada should apologise

to lance'

hey! i'm english.............maybe it was me in above quote? coo..ool!

 

[Galic Ho]

Thanks gallic ho, for that prolonged intellectual suicide note.

McQuack is Irish. You and your bankrupt country have a lot to answer for. Be greatful we don't stick the boot into your stinking joke of a nation.

Paul Kimmage and David Walsh cannot make up for sins your nation has committed in the name of cycling. Don't forget that champ. As it stands, the second greatest evil currently in cycling is Irish.

How about you and andy simpleton get a room? You can discuss how you didn't once bring up the OP. So carry on with your Guiness and McQuack worship, carry on. It is what Irishmen do isn't it? Look outside and remind yourself, you're Irish. You have more reason to off yourself than any Aussie has. Our country isn't broke, isn't a complete joke politically and in roles of authority and the weather is good here all year round. Just remind yourself of that.

 

[Galic Ho]

there's proof that some posters take themselves way too seriously....

............at least polish was funny

over at velo news they started a thread.........'why usada should apologise

to lance'

hey! i'm english.............maybe it was me in above quote? coo..ool!

And the irony of the idiocy you have posted is lost on you. You joined this forum in August 2012. Bahaha. So you joined this forum to get away from Velonews!!! Anyone with a brain and not a fanboy crotch rider...well they left in 2009. Get with the times.

Yeah that explains your posting style. So you're not even the most extreme fanboy type out there. You left there or somewhere else because your tolerance level hit the precipice, you realised what was going on one level (LA and USPS) and didn't want to pipe down. But they wouldn't let you say the obvious, so you left and found that this place is actually the most tolerant doping talking corner on the net regarding cycling. But, alas, it's too liberal for you. Too open. I can understand that you'd had enough and decided to find a better place more with the times, but you didn't expect what you found did you? I get it, you're not at the same point some people on here are and being told so is probably offensive to you. We're not here to hold your hand and sugar coat reality for you champ. Sorry, nobody gets it easy. Tough love is needed. The part that really irks is that now you come on here and think you're going to alter the status quo and decorum. What thehog has posted must just go in one ear and out the other. Are you regretting leaving whatever corner of the web you came from to be here?

You want to learn about what really goes on, then pretty much everything must be permitted. Censorship has to go out the door. Mods who ban people for simply disagreeing with them cannot be in power. Doesn't happen here. So do you get why I suggested disruptive types be banned? They're asking for FRAKING CENSORSHIP, the one thing that was absent and makes this place so valuable. And over what? That's right, one or two thing they don't like and as thehog says, they can throw out the moniker of 'proof' at. Something they clearly have not damn well defined or worse, something they bandy on about in a manner which is blatantly against what is common public knowledge. That is what I was talking about regarding fanboys.

Answer this one if you think I am wrong. Failure to do so will out you in a very unpleasant manner. Were you one those guys who still thought LA had a case at the beginning of this year? When did you turn? Really turn. Was it August or October or was it earlier? Did proof for you mean USADA had to actually charge the man or actually release the Reasoned Decision? Or perhaps you were so enlightened that you figured it out years ago, like most of the seasoned Clinic regulars. You see ebandit, people are given a lot more slack on here than they believe they are given. People who figured Lance out long ago have been cutting people a ton of slack and they were the people attacked left right and centre. You'd be best served by remembering that those labelled haters and cynics were right. The truth was on their side. They were ahead of the curve in reading the picture and full scope of things. Now ask yourself why? What is it about their brain that they got it and saw it before others did? It's what I explained give or take some personal differentiation on minor things.

Your post actually has a lot of detail to it. It describes to a nutshell what I said. That people operate on different levels and when their own definition of proof is reached, they alter their perception and personal truth. Thus as I said, most people are sheep. They follow the status quo and only begrudgingly go against what they are fed. It'd be wise of you not to reply but think clearly about how you're going to play your cards. Personally, I think you're mad or upset and 'reacting' like most of the conned were. You'll get there eventually, but do remember that where your brain is at, the older established Clinic poster were in that spot years and years ago. They are 10-20 steps ahead of the game. That's how clued in they are.

and yeah, umad bro you ebandit warrior? I'd be if I wasn't that clued in and I totally understand. You're just wrong if you think I won't say it to anyone. The time for patience, well that passed. Now it's time for real change.

 

[Galic Ho]

The more I read the more I realise people throw the word "proof" around but fail define what proof they're looking for or what it means in the context of doping in cycling.

Appears more like a defensive mechanism to support their favourite team. It's also a cop out from debating suspicious/suspect behaviour from their favourite team.

Disappointing. I'm still yet to learn the meaning of "proof".

+1000 char.

Don't be disappointed. It's a patented and predictable manoeuvre. Passing the buck and making excuses 101. Seeing it happen is inevitable.

Simple solution. Don't respond to that section of a post. Cut it out and ignore it. Let's face it, there are always going to be individuals bemoaning the supposed 'lack of proof' surrounding a topic of interest they have over extended their interest in. To reach their level of satisfaction, well it's not worth your time. The Clinic isn't here to accommodate the special needs of a few with over inflated ego's, a false sense of self importance and a penchant for demanding everything go their own way.

Proof to some, is how you put it. The rest of the forum knows what proof means and don't throw the word around as a trump card to win a debate. the other word that springs to mind is 'fact.' 'Let's have a debate on what constitutes fact' for 30+ pages in a single day...happens far too often.

 

[del1962]

There is evidence and there is speculation

Evidence

Sworn affidavits from people who would know this, teamates, close friends of teammates, sougnours etc,

Failed drug tests and deleberately missing drug tests

Being caught with PEDs in car/flat etc

Taped conversations with doctors discusing this

If the evidence is solid enough a proof can be made.


Then there is speculation

Such as he performed well he must be on dope.

He went to tenerife so he must be on dope.

It is far better to concentrate on evidence than speculation

 

[wannab]

What does it take to prove doping to the general public that a rider or team are doping?

I would add that "not testing positive" or "passing all the tests" certainly doesn't mean "not doping".

While "not testing positive" doesn't mean "not doping" as we all know, it does prove legally your not guilty, in absence of substantial indirect evidence.

And I think that's a good thing, no-one wants to be considered guilty until proven otherwise I think.

So all speculations about Tenerife, sudden peaks, etc. aside, how suspicious we may find them, they don't mean sh!t in the end. That doesn't mean we should stop asking these questions, they are very important and keep us vigilant and help the anti-doping stance.

Because of the direct evidence of a positive test, this should be top priority. However, it's a hard fight, that's why I already pointed out once the importance of retro-active testing, as of Out of Competition testing.

This however, should be coupled to an independent authority which guarantees transparency and integrity. Throw in bio-passport etc. and you got a pretty good system to guarantee, to some extend, a level playing field.

This truly will be proof of guilt and cannot be considered allegations or suspicion

 

[pmcg76]

McQuack is Irish. You and your bankrupt country have a lot to answer for. Be greatful we don't stick the boot into your stinking joke of a nation.

Paul Kimmage and David Walsh cannot make up for sins your nation has committed in the name of cycling. Don't forget that champ. As it stands, the second greatest evil currently in cycling is Irish.

How about you and andy simpleton get a room? You can discuss how you didn't once bring up the OP. So carry on with your Guiness and McQuack worship, carry on. It is what Irishmen do isn't it? Look outside and remind yourself, you're Irish. You have more reason to off yourself than any Aussie has. Our country isn't broke, isn't a complete joke politically and in roles of authority and the weather is good here all year round. Just remind yourself of that.

Yes, you are right. One little island in the Atlantic is to blame for all the problems in pro cycling. Never mind that McQuaid has only been in power for the last 6-7 years whilst the doping problem has been ingrained in pro cycling for.........based on that I would think it is the Dutch to blame.

I don't think McQuaid has much actual support in Ireland considering that at the recent AGM of Cycling Ireland, the subject of denouncing McQuaid was raised. Most of the recent coverage I have seen has been of Kimmage and Walsh who have thrashed McQuaid.

In the name of nationality bashing, funny but my impression of Aussie's that I have met were that they were ignorant, arrogant and racist. Reading your post, it fits right in.

 

[Galic Ho]

Yes, you are right. One little island in the Atlantic is to blame for all the problems in pro cycling. Never mind that McQuaid has only been in power for the last 6-7 years whilst the doping problem has been ingrained in pro cycling for.........based on that I would think it is the Dutch to blame.

I don't think McQuaid has much actual support in Ireland considering that at the recent AGM of Cycling Ireland, the subject of denouncing McQuaid was raised. Most of the recent coverage I have seen has been of Kimmage and Walsh who have thrashed McQuaid.

In the name of nationality bashing, funny but my impression of Aussie's that I have met were that they were ignorant, arrogant and racist. Reading your post, it fits right in.

Half my family originated in Ireland. Nothing racist at all you useless hack. Try harder. You need a history lesson. Most Anglo Saxon Aussies are English and Irish. Look at the surnames. Oh but the fanboy poster think's we're racist Yeah...try harder.

Next time someone implies you go kill yourself don't bother replying to them. Oh, but the wise pmcg76 missed that part didn't he? BTW you haven't met any Aussies on this forum. Sorry but that doesn't count. Met means in person. Of course you'd like to name all these racists wouldn't you? You sound like the illegal immigrants arriving and claiming Australia is filled with racists...which denies their reason for trying to get here so desperately.

Aussies anti-doping efforts. The head of WADA was the Premier of my home state NSW. His name is John Fahey. The people on the UCI who stood up to McQuack, wait, they were Aussie too...Anne Gripper, head of triathlon Australia. The one BioPassport overseeing committee member to talk...oh snap, another Aussie, Dr Ashenden.

Now lets look at the efforts of Ireland shall we? Paul Kimmage and David Walsh. That's it. Anytime someone implies I go kill myself, I will take a dig at them for their nationality, because Ireland is about the easiest country in the world in pro cycling apart from Spain to rip to shreds. And yes, if your country is bankrupt and you held the leading chair in the Euro parliament, you certainly deserve to be mocked. Why/ To show you that if suicide is on the cards, there are more reasons to look at home rather than abroad. But you missed that didn't you. I cannot say it's a first for you. As I said, the reasons for Irish people to wander off chasing Leprechauns is far higher than any Aussie has. Oh and yeah, they called off the two nations cross AFL Gaelic football matches. But you know why don't you? Nope...you're too silly to have that pegged out. It's because the Aussies literally started a punch up every game and the poor Irish were being flogged senseless. The Irish of all people, losing a fight. And I thought the legends said they were all bad @rses. As I said, Australia has nothing to be upset about or suicidal over. So reversing the focus onto a lone upset Irishman...common courtesy. Not all of Ireland genius, just him. Just him. Like all the fanboys. Your country gets brought up, it's just about you, nobody else. Just you.

Our economy is strong, our weather is good, our housing market didn't go bottom up and we can take a punch. Plenty more reasons to be happier than an Irishman. Heck, that might explain all the Irish I've seen in Australia!

Can you say that pmcg76? Yeah, I won't hold my breath. Irish denounce McQuack. Please pull the other one. The Roche's have come out supporting the man. That's Irelands biggest cycling family. That's the only bit of power they have in the sport. If the Irish had the gall to do the right thing, he'd have been gone months ago and Paul Kimmage would have had universal support from his home country. Months ago. The silence is deafening. But by all means, lets start deflecting onto the Dutch...please, give us a break. McQuack holds the power and refuses to do the right and good thing. That's who the Irish chose to put into power. Deal with it. And yeah, the biggest Aussie on any sporting body just happens to be the president of WADA, the people who represent clean sport. The irony is right in your face smiling.

Next thing I know you'll be asking for proof...yeah, commenting on the OP and staying in context is your whole point in quoting someone...NOT.

 

[Polyarmour]

As an Australian I think Galic Ho's bigoted posts regarding Ireland are a disgrace.

You don't ridicule an entire country (and its people) due to the perceived actions of one or two people.

Certainly the Irish economy has nothing to do with cycling. Why would you even link it?

I can only say to pmcg76 to ignore him. His posts paint a very clear portrait of himself... and it's a pretty unimpressive one.

 

[Tinman]

McQuack is Irish. You and your bankrupt country have a lot to answer for. Be greatful we don't stick the boot into your stinking joke of a nation.

Following this developing disucssion with interest.

cocteau_ireland lives in Belfast. So presumably British not Irish?

 

[Galic Ho]

As an Australian I think Galic Ho's bigoted posts regarding Ireland are a disgrace.

You don't ridicule an entire country (and its people) due to the perceived actions of one or two people.

Certainly the Irish economy has nothing to do with cycling. Why would you even link it?

I can only say to pmcg76 to ignore him. His posts paint a very clear portrait of himself... and it's a pretty unimpressive one.

Really? Really? Really? You clearly vote Labor. Why would I raise the disgraces Ireland has committed? To show that when the going gets tough the Irish deflect on their own, the best they have. Sheesh, you aren't bright are you? Don't answer the question was rhethorical.

So what did Matt White do when his name was linked to dirty activities? He owned up and quit. Didn't need to be asked. What did the top Irishman in any sport do when called out by one of the best sports journalists in sport? He sued his own countryman. How did the Irish react? The same way they did when the country went bankrupt. They ignored it.

You don't like the comparison between the behaviour then stiff bickies. It stands and is true. Oh but polyarmour is another one of the fanboys the forum has seen come and go at will. If you don't have the nads to call out the disgraces in your backyard you don't have a right to suggest someone off themselves. You got a problem with me putting someone who implied I should kill myself then PM me and we can meet up. If the thought of meeting a fit and active 30 year old appeals to you, by all means, man up. Otherwise, get a room with your old friend and sod off.

Got a problem with your eyes and cannot read. I said only that guy...only him. Nobody else. As I said, the Irish have a lot to answer for. Having one or two good guys barracking for change doesn't excuse the laisse faire attitiude on display in that country, nor does it for many other European nations. BTW genius, the economy, ahem, the Euro zone, it goes down, world cycling takes a massive dive. Look at the Spanish FFS and use your brain. It matters far more than your simpleton outlook thinks and yes, the Irish were the first to mess up in Europe. Or did you forget that in your revisionist mindset? But of course, the Irish guy who is a fanboy, like you and pcmg76 acts all offended when called out, You just supported a guy who suggested another forumist kill themself. So gonna PM me to meet up and prove yourself? Your colours are showing coward.

And no the irony that the British of all people, are the ones called upon to do the hard yards isn't lost on me. BTW, get back to me when that guy and his ilk remove McQuack. The Aussie national coach did the right thing, time for the Irish to do what is needed. But as I showed, the character needed is sorely lacking as evidenced in many aspects of their country. I'm so sorry the truth hurts your precious feelings. Enjoy voting for Gillard and our own rot.

 

[thehog]

+1000 char.

Don't be disappointed. It's a patented and predictable manoeuvre. Passing the buck and making excuses 101. Seeing it happen is inevitable.

Simple solution. Don't respond to that section of a post. Cut it out and ignore it. Let's face it, there are always going to be individuals bemoaning the supposed 'lack of proof' surrounding a topic of interest they have over extended their interest in. To reach their level of satisfaction, well it's not worth your time. The Clinic isn't here to accommodate the special needs of a few with over inflated ego's, a false sense of self importance and a penchant for demanding everything go their own way.

Proof to some, is how you put it. The rest of the forum knows what proof means and don't throw the word around as a trump card to win a debate. the other word that springs to mind is 'fact.' 'Let's have a debate on what constitutes fact' for 30+ pages in a single day...happens far too often.

It's a little frustrating but not unexpected.

You put forward some fairly damming associations and all you get back is: "it's not 100% proof" - so you ask - what would be proof in this particular context? - silence - nothing.

It's obvious many are freighted to use: "never tested positive" but that's the level of critical reasoning that's being presented.

I think there is a lot of proof. No wonder cycling is in a mess. The fans will pretend their heroes are clean regardless.

What hope is there?

 

[Galic Ho]

Following this developing disucssion with interest.

cocteau_ireland lives in Belfast. So presumably British not Irish?

Like I care. Fact remains I have heard ZERO talk from any of the Irish posters on the biggest issue regarding their country in this forum. And that is McQuaid. He has to go. The Brits are dealing with theirs, the yanks, the Aussies, albeit begrudgingly. No, what we have here is an old clique of friends, and yes polyarmour and pmcg76 are old friends on this forum, not liking me calling out one guy, just one guy and likening him to the worst characteristics displayed in his country ain't racism.

Racism? As I said, I look like I am English or Irish. I can even do the accents. Sorry, but if you imply a poster should 'commit suicide' then you get the full blow. The old story of birds of a feather flock together rings true. And no, not one of these guy once mentioned the OP. Not once.

When the Irish cycling bodies or Olympic Committee stand up and defend their best anti-doping representative who has been savaged and vilified by their own highest ranking man, then and only then can an Irish man/woman sink the boot into anyone else. Picking on the Irish and Spanish ATM is like stealing candy from a baby. And no, I don't have a problem with the average Irish person, they're not to blame for the economy collapse or the governing fiasco's and abuse. Just like the average Spaniard. They engender sympathy...except when a fanboy gets upset and suggests one commit suicide. My point stands...there are more reasons to off oneself if you're Irish than an Aussie. People need to look at their own and quit their b1tch deflections.

 

[nighttrain]

So what is proof of doping? A positive test, rider testimony etc.?

What does it take to prove doping to the general public that a rider or team are doping? .

After 20 years of doping scandals ruling the sport, it is more appropriate that the teams/racers prove to us that their results are untainted.

 

[Galic Ho]

It's a little frustrating but not unexpected.

You put forward some fairly damming associations and all you get back is: "it's not 100% proof" - so you ask - what would be proof in this particular context? - silence - nothing.

It's obvious many are freighted to use: "never tested positive" but that's the level of critical reasoning that's being presented.

I think there is a lot of proof. No wonder cycling is in a mess. The fans will pretend their heroes are clean regardless.

What hope is there?

There is plenty of hope. Sticking with an Irish theme here...how about Paul Kimmage. His donation fund is proof enough people care. People care enough that an injustice is being perpetuated. So much so they give their own $$$ to support a man who only ever stood up for the truth when he saw proof of fraud and cheating going on. Time provided him right, but what constituted proof was not shown or reported.

So how to change that? Simple...call it out. The masses are hearing, my point in my original post is about perception versus reality. At what stage does one deem the evidence as 'proof'. And by proof, I mean proof enough to adopt a different ideological stance, or a change in opinion. We need more voices questioning in the media. We need morally sound people in positions of power. People who have a loyalty first and foremost to the truth. Not people who deflect. Not people switch blame from one person to another. People of compassion and understand, but tempered with enough strength that they stay the moral and right course.

To do that requires institutional change. There is talk of this new movement backed by the Czech businessman Bakala. The head of the RCS, Acquarone, is talking with him. I'm not sure on the methodology they have planned, but any major change needs to involve a clearing out. The Power That Be (PTB) need to go, whether they are team directors/owners, UCI officials/reps or at the ASO and RCS. National level scum bags need to be given the boot. They all need to go. The fans need to be vocal about this. I have no problem with a sponsorship program like Bakala's entering the sport IF the UCI is reshaped. The enablers and drug pushers need to be booted. CONI and the Italians are doing quite a lot. I think the reason all their older GC riders have slowed down was fear. The message is getting through to some people. Wonder why Nibali left Liquigas? I don't think it was for the money alone. I think it was to get away from Italy. The Belgians are thinking of reform. The Australians are having a minor probe into the business.

I'd love for the new French President to change the law and force the ASO to take doping seriously. They know it goes on. They met with Sky before the Tour to do what with Bio profiles? Discuss cadence and marginal gains? We all know why they met and it was to ensure the Tour didn't become a complete farce, which it was close to reaching. Heck we've got Froome laying the smack talk down early for next July. No need to wonder how that will pan out is there? No the French can change the law to allow the AFLD to march into the Tour and raid everyone. Everyone on the days most akin to doping with blood vector boosters. Allow them to wake everyone up at 1-2am and do a mass peloton blood test. Catch them microdosing. Put the literal fear of God into the race. They'll back off, just like the Italian big names have. Nobody wants to the gendarmerie matching them down to the slammer and doing a strip search. Force them to clean up. There is a way, but is their a will?

The media need to atone for their complicity. They've allowed a lot to go on. Kimmage practically stood alone. I say invite him to the TdU and put Liggett to the pulpit and get him to answer questions. I saw on Scott LeMond's twitter months back a suggestion that P&P were supposedly talking aloud about LA doping at the 2007 Tour (think that was it). Grill the man. He was the big journalist who championed the cause. Force the others to follow suite of be ridiculed by the masses. You see it's like riding a wave. It's building and people are trying to catch on, it's just at this stage we don't know whether it'll break or continually build and take one into the beach. The momentum is there, it's just only a few are fighting.

And yeah, the Irish can do everyone a world of good and remove McQuaid themselves. If team Sky of all groups can remove minor guys who enabled doping and not on that basis, then with all the garbage and ammunition McQuaid has given people, surely, surely, they can stand up for Kimmage and knock him back. It shouldn't be up to some lone cowboy lawyer from Switzerland to lay the smack down.

People are learning from the past. Look at the number of new posters on here. Yes, some of them aren't here for the right reasons, but they are here. The most cycnical views on here from a societal point have shown to be the most realistic...people are catching on and learning that they have been conned by many. Their patience is thinning. As I said, there are no absolutes. The anti-doping fight will never end. It's part of the human condition that someone somewhere is cheating. The right people doing the fighting need to remain vigilant and hold their own. I really hope the Italians and French uncover some serious stuff in their races next season as it will force the peloton to really change. And yes, I have seen change from a lot of the elite riders. Maybe not a lot, but enough that I think some of them desire the doping to be gone entirely and not just those who use psuedo code words that uphold omerta.

 

[Galic Ho]

After 20 years of doping scandals ruling the sport, it is more appropriate that the teams/racers prove to us that their results are untainted.

The Clinic has been asking for this. It's been suggested many times. Greg Lemond gave a nice example of keeping power and physiological readings.

Having the physicists on the forum helps. Sure they get off track occasionally and don't like some lines of questioning, but they are giving actual feedback. Giving a framework. If you get enough data, you can gather a very strong picture of what has and is going on and what shouldn't be. Now that's just power outputs. Of course Bio Passport stuff doesn't count.

That's where the media step in. They can demand the transparency and shame those who don't provide it. Is it in their interests to do this? You know, not bite the hand that feeds them? Your best guess is anyone's.

Hard data that is accurate, well that is proof. Where should we start? I'd say a nice look at the UCI's suspicion index from before the 2010 Tour is a nice start. After all the winner was stripped. Show the public the figures and samples that lead to that list. Then explain it...but they can't. They'd have to sanction half the peloton in all likelihood or admit that the Bio Passport actual functions as a warning system for going too far in ones doping. The proof is there, getting access to it or having the PTB address it is another matter.

 

[Krebs cycle]

The Clinic has been asking for this. It's been suggested many times. Greg Lemond gave a nice example of keeping power and physiological readings.

Having the physicists on the forum helps. Sure they get off track occasionally and don't like some lines of questioning, but they are giving actual feedback. Giving a framework. If you get enough data, you can gather a very strong picture of what has and is going on and what shouldn't be. Now that's just power outputs. Of course Bio Passport stuff doesn't count.

That's where the media step in. They can demand the transparency and shame those who don't provide it. Is it in their interests to do this? You know, not bite the hand that feeds them? Your best guess is anyone's.

Hard data that is accurate, well that is proof. Where should we start? I'd say a nice look at the UCI's suspicion index from before the 2010 Tour is a nice start. After all the winner was stripped. Show the public the figures and samples that lead to that list. Then explain it...but they can't. They'd have to sanction half the peloton in all likelihood or admit that the Bio Passport actual functions as a warning system for going too far in ones doping. The proof is there, getting access to it or having the PTB address it is another matter.

As you probably can guess, my position on doping is that the burden of proof needs to be pretty strong. I have a good reason for this position and it relates to what Rob Parisotto, Ken Sharpe, Chris Gore and Michael Ashenden had to go through when they first tried to get the EPO test sanctioned by the IOC in time for the Sydney Olympics. They had huge battles with the IOC lawyers specifically regarding the issue of false positives.

The problem is simple.... if the burden of proof (threshold) is set too low then you increase the risk of false positives. If you increase the risk of false positives by too much then everyone has a full proof legal defense and nobody gets done. Ever. Hence you end up catching LESS dopers than you would if you simply kept the threshold higher.

This reasoning of course only applies to proof that requires a threshold be broken eg: the biopassport and various other tests, or any such system such as Lemond proposed that would use performance or physiological measures. The best proof IMO though is catching teams with doping products red handed. I wish the authorities or race organisers could simply "inspect" team buses and hotel rooms or have independent observers stationed inside the bus during stage races and literally go everywhere with the team. It's pretty hard to stick a blood bag in your arm for 30min when you've got some anti-doping official watching you 24/7. That official carries a sample kit with them and if they suspect something dodgy for a second they just order an on the spot urine or blood test, and/or they have permission to search personal belongings. I think it is a drastic invasion of privacy and the teams and cyclists would arc up massively, but f@#& it, if you want to be a professional athlete, there are rules that you have to abide by (not cheating for starters). If you don't like those rules, then get another job.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sky could have done that with Kimmage this year.

Wiggins said no.

Not all independent observers are going to be as lovey dovey as Kimmage - so ... yes that certainly would have helped them, I think.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I also want someone to develop a total Hbmass test method that is sabotage proof unlike the rebreathing method.

All you need to do is take a sample of the athlete's blood, and analyse it for %carboxyhemoglobin, then inject the remaining blood with CO, analyse that sample to get a precise measure of the amount of HbCO, then re-inject it into the athlete. Wait 10min and take another sample and check the %HbCO. You can then work out total Hbmass, and when you add this measure into the biopassport it gets real tough to beat it.

Some technical details obviously need to be worked out (like how to mix the CO into the blood sample) but the principle is sound.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Sky could have done that with Kimmage this year.

Wiggins said no.

Not all independent observers are going to be as lovey dovey as Kimmage - so ... yes that certainly would have helped them, I think.

Kimmage was a journalist though who wants a story. If for example ASO say here are the rules.... if you want to enter the TdF you must allow an independent observer (who sits quietly in the corner) to follow you everywhere. This observer is an anti-doping official who has the following permissions... yada yada. If you don't like it, you cannot enter our race with our rules.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Kimmage was a journalist though who wants a story. If for example ASO say here are the rules.... if you want to enter the TdF you must allow an independent observer (who sits quietly in the corner) to follow you everywhere. This observer is an anti-doping official who has the following permissions... yada yada. If you don't like it, you cannot enter our race with our rules.

Disagree. The precedent set in 2008 with Garmin he had the same attitude and came away a believer.