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What gave Lance the better programme?

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Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
To the blue above - of course there are many that are neither.

"Continue", interesting choice of words - perhaps instead of writing posts that only discuss other posters or some sort of persecution, then addressing questions or points would serve you (and your fingers) better?

No need to 'praise me' for the above - I would much prefer an answer to my earlier question, than praise.

No more answers. I am stubborn right now, because it all makes no sense.
It will go on and on and on....
There is especially no more sense for me to post about Lord Lance.

Whatever I write, except of the Armstrong posts - there are no complains, no hyenas, no know-it-alls, no one is insulting me personally there - just normal talk and discussion.
Thats very very obvious.
It just makes no sense to write something about Armstrong here in this forum.

Takes not a long time till you are surrounded by the hyenas, that think they have the right to go for a walkie with me and that they have all the knowledge and power of the world, just because they like kicking Lance´s a*** and always find something to fix themselfes up .

So praise the Lord and go on with other people that provide themselfes to go for a walkie.
But I will have a look at some time, if any answers to MY questions appear.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Indurain said:
If Armstrong got his gains by training that much harder, smarter, etc than everyone else in the peleton he would have burnt out long ago. I don't think there is much difference between him and other GT contenders like Ullrich, et al. when they all hit peak. The body will only go so hard before you start losing power because you can't recover quick enough.

He certainly had a transformation. Probably the greatest ever known (from non-climber, non-timetrialler to perhaps the best ever known at both disciplines???) Probably could have got he hour record if he wanted to. Nothing but Meticulous drug taking or life saving genetic manipulation could have turned him into that. While his 93 worlds was impressive (but wouldn't have won had it been dry), he certainly wasn't any throroughbred.
...so maybe it is the novel use of drugs that promote recovery that is the secret...that would allow huge pre-race workloads to actually be productive....and yes that does run counter to the fixation on EPO...but...

Cheers

blutto
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Indurain said:
If Armstrong got his gains by training that much harder, smarter, etc than everyone else in the peleton he would have burnt out long ago. I don't think there is much difference between him and other GT contenders like Ullrich, et al. when they all hit peak. The body will only go so hard before you start losing power because you can't recover quick enough.

He certainly had a transformation. Probably the greatest ever known (from non-climber, non-timetrialler to perhaps the best ever known at both disciplines???) Probably could have got he hour record if he wanted to. Nothing but Meticulous drug taking or life saving genetic manipulation could have turned him into that. While his 93 worlds was impressive (but wouldn't have won had it been dry), he certainly wasn't any throroughbred.
In actuality, that is supposition that I believe incorrectly suggests a human is incapable of sustaining that kind of stress over a long period of time. Also note that part of being exacting is knowing when to rest your body and how long you need to do so. Maybe he had a well trained physiologist telling him what his body was doing at any given time, and what he needed to do at that precise time Maybe he was as exacting in that as he appears to have been in every other aspect. While most people may be incapable of such things, did you ever consider that maybe that is one of the components of his success? What if he could take the sustained effort it took? (it takes effort to do anything in terms of training, up to and including resting at the right times) Maybe that is the one of the differences (obviously decreased doping is logically there too) in his efforts this year compared to when he was winning. Maybe he did burn out? Who is to say that a person cannot maintain 8 years (he started training before his first TdF win) of total focus? Jan obviously couldn't, but maybe that was the biggest difference between the two?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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blutto said:
...so maybe it is the novel use of drugs that promote recovery that is the secret...that would allow huge pre-race workloads to actually be productive....and yes that does run counter to the fixation on EPO...but...

Cheers

blutto
...forgot to add that this comes from personal experience...in the early 80's training volumes increased dramatically among what became the fast part of the domestic peleton...you either got on the program and started putting in 700 or 800 mi. weeks or you became instant pack-fill...and part of the program helped you "cut" to a body fat % that was really hard to achieve normally....eventually this over-training caught up with you but if you were smart you could get several years of fast times....and if you think that these programs had a minimal effect you didn't actually live thru that period...they ( the programs)did ( talk about manufactured race-horses from mule stock )( there were a lot of "Fignon" moments during that period)...but it was a real bargain with the devil...demo-ed joints, blown-out recovery systems: you don't see many of the old fast guys still riding...I raced into my mid 50's and it was still fun but more importantly I was able to do it...everything still worked...

....bottom line...recovery is critical to "surviving" the work load required to go fast and to the ability to deal with stage races...and there are many drugs to help you do that ...once you get there EPO helps but you have to get to that certain level of performance...

Cheers

blutto
 
May 26, 2010
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Thoughtforfood said:
In actuality, that is supposition that I believe incorrectly suggests a human is incapable of sustaining that kind of stress over a long period of time. Also note that part of being exacting is knowing when to rest your body and how long you need to do so. Maybe he had a well trained physiologist telling him what his body was doing at any given time, and what he needed to do at that precise time Maybe he was as exacting in that as he appears to have been in every other aspect. While most people may be incapable of such things, did you ever consider that maybe that is one of the components of his success? What if he could take the sustained effort it took? (it takes effort to do anything in terms of training, up to and including resting at the right times) Maybe that is the one of the differences (obviously decreased doping is logically there too) in his efforts this year compared to when he was winning. Maybe he did burn out? Who is to say that a person cannot maintain 8 years (he started training before his first TdF win) of total focus? Jan obviously couldn't, but maybe that was the biggest difference between the two?
all the training in the world is not gonna replicate a race situation and what goes on in a race, effort required, attacks etc.....he was it would appear meticulous but he was not a GT winner and no matter how much training you do you cannot train to be a natural GT winner. you have it or you dont. if you dont and want it, well you find non natural means and methods.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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What gave LAnce the better programme??

Easy...

A 666 page contract signed with Beelzebub.....and witnessed by the hog of course.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Mont Ventoux said:
Easy...

A 666 page contract signed with Beelzebub.....and witnessed by the hog of course.
LOL. Very nicely put indeed.

As Lemond says, "No miracles in cycling". From Non-GT rider to the best ever known?? Something wrong with that picture. Any other examples of this in the history of cycling, not many successful ones.

Wiggans - Prologue specialist to climber. Did okay but still very limited. Timetrial effected. Will never win a GT.

Jalabert - Sprinter/Classic rider to GT rider. Never won the TdF, nor got too close. Had to attack from long way out to win KOM jersey in 2001 TdF.

Boardman and David Miller tried, but failed big time.

Fabian Cancerella will be interesting if he ever tries for it, but I doubt he can do it.

Riis did it successfully. Came from mid pack GT rider to TdF winner but proven drug taker (Mr.60% man).

Indurain: Aways good in the timetrials even when neo-pro and average climber (winning Mountain stages in 89 and 90). Not a huge transformation there (but probably doped).

Can't think of any others

But the thing in common with most of these cyclist barring Jalabert & Riis is that they can or could all timetrial with the best. They just had to learn how to climb. The difference between Armstrong and them: Armstrong couldn't timetrial nor climb pre-cancer!
 
Indurain said:
LOL. Very nicely put indeed.

As Lemond says, "No miracles in cycling". From Non-GT rider to the best ever known?? Something wrong with that picture. Any other examples of this in the history of cycling, not many successful ones.

Wiggans - Prologue specialist to climber. Did okay but still very limited. Timetrial effected. Will never win a GT.

Jalabert - Sprinter/Classic rider to GT rider. Never won the TdF, nor got too close. Had to attack from long way out to win KOM jersey in 2001 TdF.

Boardman and David Miller tried, but failed big time.

Fabian Cancerella will be interesting if he ever tries for it, but I doubt he can do it.

Riis did it successfully. Came from mid pack GT rider to TdF winner but proven drug taker (Mr.60% man).

Indurain: Aways good in the timetrials even when neo-pro and average climber (winning Mountain stages in 89 and 90). Not a huge transformation there (but probably doped).

Can't think of any others

But the thing in common with most of these cyclist barring Jalabert & Riis is that they can or could all timetrial with the best. They just had to learn how to climb. The difference between Armstrong and them: Armstrong couldn't timetrial nor climb pre-cancer!
Perhaps

David Arroyo

Christian Vandevelde

Alexander Vinokourov - vuelta.

Just of the top of my head.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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It was just a perfect alignment of the stars for Lance. EPO has varying degrees of effectiveness for different athletes given the need to keep blood levels to below that which would fail a test. Lance evidently had the perfect metabolism to get the most from EPO under the rules at the time and rode when EPO use was rampant.

So we will never know who the best cyclist of the 90's were but we do know which ones had the best metabolisms for doping.
 

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