What gave Lance the better programme?

[Cobblestoned]

Is this post in code? because it's not easy to decipher.

Anyways, so Ferrari shares his knowledge with the other doping doctors. Enough said....if you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative, I could somewhat see what you are trying to do - but if you really believe this stuff you write, god help us all. Conconi trained Ferrari (student teacher i mean), but they fell out by the way - why? because even Conconi said that Ferrari had no morals. Which is quite a statement when Conconi is saying it. Do you still not accept that Lance had an exclusivity agreement with Ferrari and USP?

Why should I ?
Why should I not believe what I write. Just have a look at the clients I posted earlier. Nearly all proven and documented. Same goes for connections and cooperation.
I think we should make an agreement right here:
You believe in what you wrote and I believe in what I wrote.
Would say this thing is stuck right now.

I will never believe these "exclusive", "more and harder products" and "bestofallresponder" storys, because this are just disproven and unproven speculations too make Lance as worse as possible.

 

[Kodiak]

for some reason I can picture LA sitting around the table in 97 telling his friends that he'd give his left nut for a shot at winning a race in the TDF. Along comes Ferrari and demands just that for his services.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ah finaly.

This is the sort of answer i have been looking for.

Also, this is a list of products that Jesus Manzano admitted to taking at different points in his career.
Knowing how much, when (and when not to) take certain products would require more expertise than a soigneur could give.


Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why should I ?
Why should I not believe what I write. Just have a look at the clients I posted earlier. Nearly all proven and documented. Same goes for connections and cooperation.
I think we should make an agreement right here:
You believe in what you wrote and I believe in what I wrote.
Would say this thing is stuck right now.

I will never believe these "exclusive", "more and harder products" and "bestofallresponder" storys, because this are just disproven and unproven speculations too make Lance as worse as possible.

Can you name a rider that was not on USPS that Dr. Ferrari was working with after 1999 up until Lance retired in 2005?

 

[The Hitch]

I have highlighted the 'dopers' - which one out of them has not served a sanction?
Why is that fair? I couldn't care less if Lance's name is removed from the record books - but he should have to accept the same consequences as everyone else.

I like much of what you say in the other posts, but on this point, to be fair, all these guys got caught after Lance retired.
I guess that could be a good thread too. How comes Lance retired just before all the guys got caught, just before Operation Puertro and all the s**t storms that followed.

 

[The Hitch]

Also, this is a list of products that Jesus Manzano admitted to taking at different points in his career.
Knowing how much, when (and when not to) take certain products would require more expertise than a soigneur could give.


Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant

Wow maddone, so this is what a doping programme looks like.

 

[joe_papp]

...So what gave Lance (and others) the better doping programme? ...

Greater tolerance of risk.
Mastery of logistics.
Encouraging complicity of others.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I have highlighted the 'dopers' - which one out of them has not served a sanction?
Why is that fair? I couldn't care less if Lance's name is removed from the record books - but he should have to accept the same consequences as everyone else.

I can see two.
But yes, a 2 year ban would be ok for Lance.

Sad that Ullrich will get a lifetime-ban, if they should ever finish this case...

 

[Cobblestoned]

Can you name a rider that was not on USPS that Dr. Ferrari was working with after 1999 up until Lance retired in 2005?

I could, yes.
But the best example is like a holy person in here.

Ask Joe. Perhaps he has some people in mind.

 

[hrotha]

I could, yes.
But the best example is like a holy person in here.

Ask Joe. Perhaps he has some people in mind.

Who, Vino? Someone else? Just say it and try to substantiate it at least a little.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I could, yes.
But the best example is like a holy person in here.

Ask Joe. Perhaps he has some people in mind.

I wasn't asking Joe, I was asking you - as you seem to have some info.

So, who else was working with Dr. Ferrari between 99-05 that was not associated with USPS?

 

[Indurain]

Lance wasn't much off a donkey. He couldn't timetrial (Big Mig beat him by 5mins), He couldn't climb the mountains, but could ride the hills okay. Sounds a bit like a donkey to me (when considering his Grand Tour abilities). Even Phil. Anderson stated that no one would have considered him a future Tour winner pre cancer days. Even Riis was a better tour rider than Lance before he was transformed.

Sounds to me that his Dr. made a thoroughbred out of a donkey.

 

[Polish]

Lance wasn't much off a donkey. He couldn't timetrial (Big Mig beat him by 5mins), He couldn't climb the mountains, but could ride the hills okay. Sounds a bit like a donkey to me (when considering his Grand Tour abilities). Even Phil. Anderson stated that no one would have considered him a future Tour winner pre cancer days. Even Riis was a better tour rider than Lance before he was transformed.

Sounds to me that his Dr. made a thoroughbred out of a donkey.

BINGO!

Diagonal.....all in one post lol.

What do I win?

 

[Oldman]

Greater tolerance of risk.
Mastery of logistics.

Encouraging complicity of others.

My point exactly. Know the logistics of testing appointments and be there before results reach a critical mass. All it takes is a little $trategic planning.

 

[python]

My point exactly. Know the logistics of testing appointments and be there before results reach a critical mass. All it takes is a little $trategic planning.

and most important, know which new tests are are coming to your local wada lab. if a half a dozen italians caught with cera only knew....

it's a little known fact that conconi and ferrari had connections in the rome lab which was implicated in leaks and later quietly overhauled. vino got caught b/c il dottore did not know lndd's business as well as he knew his local lab's business - lndd introduced hbt test just one month before that tour.

 

[Cobblestones]

Also, this is a list of products that Jesus Manzano admitted to taking at different points in his career.
Knowing how much, when (and when not to) take certain products would require more expertise than a soigneur could give.


Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant

This.

Imagine the big shot of a team taking all of this under constant medical supervision which is scary enough since neither do we know the effect of these drugs on healthy individuals, nor how they behave combined with each other. But at least someone is looking after him.

Now imagine the big shot demanding the pack fodder of his team to do the same regime without medical supervision (remember tests are expensive) and possibly leaving out some drugs based on cost/availability.

 

[Digger]

Why should I ?
Why should I not believe what I write. Just have a look at the clients I posted earlier. Nearly all proven and documented. Same goes for connections and cooperation.
I think we should make an agreement right here:
You believe in what you wrote and I believe in what I wrote.
Would say this thing is stuck right now.

I will never believe these "exclusive", "more and harder products" and "bestofallresponder" storys, because this are just disproven and unproven speculations too make Lance as worse as possible.

Disproven by who? You 'argument' goes against all medical reasoning. Do you even know that EPO worked better in riders who were more muscular? So how can you possibly say that all riders respond the same way?

And secondly, as Dr M has asked twice now, name the other riders who worked with Ferrari during the USP years, who did not have a link with USP. Simple question and it is now being asked a third time.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Sorry that I have to sleep at some time.

At the first look after breakfast:
Headill, fanboy dementia, dreamer, stoned, drinking, bad English and spelling, a German! (sure forgot something).....thats not the way to discuss people.
Desperate people discuss like that.

Basis to discuss with some of you people is totally lost and I would rather cut my fingers off than help some people not turn in their circle of assumptions any more, just because your wiki-links don´t bring you any further.
Just polemics and when a question is answered you invent some new speculation! which I then have to disprove. Then its disproved and other things are started. Thats not the way it works. Its not me who has to prove something, but all the others who make Lance to a donkey and Ferrari to a god. I won´t throw any more names on the table. Thats not my style and I dislike that. Hints, facts and posts enough. And its not my job reappraise the whole history of doping for you, just because your wiki-links don´t bring you any further. I am really tired of that.

But I have some counter-questions.
Do you guys think that Fuentes is donkey as dottore and preparatore ? Sorry I have to praise him - don´t like that too.
But this guy is a genius in - not only his blooddoping. A workoholic and logistic wonder in the new blooddoping-era.
Just look at his clients, connections and his "palmares".
He had the best and modern machines, plans and logistics that would make a clinic or laboratory jealous. His blooddoping and his methods of enriching blood are the reference.

Another question.
Why did Ferrari take so long to have a multiple tourwin in his palmares, when he was sooo good and unscrupulous ?
How could it be that Indurain won his 5, while Ferrari was the god of doping and could make a one and only bestresponding donkey to a tourwinner ?
I think I saw this Fuentes guy running around all these spanish riders and others, as a young man, too. And he learned a lot.
He wasn´t paid so much for nothing and didn´t come out of the dark.
Connections from Spain, over Germany to Italy are still there on the table for you.

 

[Benotti69]

Disproven by who? You 'argument' goes against all medical reasoning. Do you even know that EPO worked better in riders who were more muscular? So how can you possibly say that all riders respond the same way?

And secondly, as Dr M has asked twice now, name the other riders who worked with Ferrari during the USP years, who did not have a link with USP. Simple question and it is now being asked a third time.

he is still avoiding answering the questions, which obviously points to a troll who is only here to try and disrupt the discussions as to who took what and how, what reasons, what effects etc...with his ludicrous allegations based on no fact.

there are quite a few people who log onto forums with the sole intention to annoy. cobblestoned is part of that 'brigade

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry that I have to sleep at some time.

At the first look after breakfast:
Headill, fanboy dementia, dreamer, stoned, drinking, bad English and spelling, a German! (sure forgot something).....thats not the way to discuss people.
Desperate people discuss like that.

Basis to discuss with some of you people is totally lost and I would rather cut my fingers off than help some people not turn in their circle of assumptions any more, just because your wiki-links don´t bring you any further.
Just polemics and when a question is answered you invent some new speculation! which I then have to disprove. Then its disproved and other things are started. Thats not the way it works. Its not me who has to prove something, but all the others who make Lance to a donkey and Ferrari to a god. I won´t throw any more names on the table. Thats not my style and I dislike that. Hints, facts and posts enough. And its not my job reappraise the whole history of doping for you, just because your wiki-links don´t bring you any further. I am really tired of that.

But I have some counter-questions.
Do you guys think that Fuentes is donkey as dottore and preparatore ? Sorry I have to praise him - don´t like that too.
But this guy is a genius in - not only his blooddoping. A workoholic and logistic wonder in the new blooddoping-era.
Just look at his clients, connections and his "palmares".
He had the best and modern machines, plans and logistics that would make a clinic or laboratory jealous. His blooddoping and his methods of enriching blood are the reference.

Another question.
Why did Ferrari take so long to have a multiple tourwin in his palmares, when he was sooo good and unscrupulous ?
How could it be that Indurain won his 5, while Ferrari was the god of doping and could make a one and only bestresponding donkey to a tourwinner ?
I think I saw this Fuentes guy running around all these spanish riders and others, as a young man, too. And he learned a lot.
He wasn´t paid so much for nothing and didn´t come out of the dark.
Connections from Spain, over Germany to Italy are still there on the table for you.

To the highlighted - thats a good point, perhaps now you might refrain from calling a group of posters 'haters'.

And as I did not address you in the manner above - then surely you will answer my question, as this would encourage others to address you in a manner that does not require you to cut your fingers off.

To the blue above - you ask a question, and then answer it yourself. Which is a pity - as it would have saved you time, no-one suggests that Fuentes is a 'donkey'.

 

[Cobblestoned]

he is still avoiding answering the questions, which obviously points to a troll who is only here to try and disrupt the discussions as to who took what and how, what reasons, what effects etc...with his ludicrous allegations based on no fact.

there are quite a few people who log onto forums with the sole intention to annoy. cobblestoned is part of that 'brigade

I think you didn´t find the right basis to discuss, too.
+ troll to try and disrupt the discussions (add that to the above) list

I am still waiting for answers for a long time now, too. But I am patient.
PS: You should go out of the clinic for only one time, too see what else I have to say.

"Look, look he doesn´t answer ONE of the 1000 questions in our interrogation.
He must be always wrong,his other answers are sheit, too now. He just talks sheit for the whole day and he is a headill, drunken and stoned troll."

tired of that

You must be some of the "Lance won´t start the tour", "lance won´t finish and get busted in France"-guy who still has the nerves and is bold enough to attack other people and just goes on trolling....

 

[Cobblestoned]

To the highlighted - thats a good point, perhaps now you might refrain from calling a group of posters 'haters'.

And as I did not address you in the manner above - then surely you will answer my question, as this would encourage others to address you in a manner that does not require you to cut your fingers off.

To the blue above - you ask a question, and then answer it yourself. Which is a pity - as it would have saved you time, no-one suggests that Fuentes is a 'donkey'.

I am flanked by uncountable posters now, because they smelled a chance like hyenas and I seem to be your only "entertainement" here. You should be thankful that there are still people who discuss these Lancethings with you, even when a basis for discussion is totally lost and I am just attacked personaly by most of the "partners".

Just praise me.

I don´t think that anyone has a problem to be a hater or fanboy. Some are really proud haters and fanboys.
But these other insults have no basis and no balance. Just provocations on the lowest level to provoke me in the hope that I will continue on that level and get banned.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am flanked by uncountable posters now, because they smelled a chance like hyenas and I seem to be your only "entertainement" here. You should be thankful that there are still people who discuss these Lancethings with you, even when a basis for discussion is totally lost and I am just attacked personaly by most of the "partners".

Just praise me.

I don´t think that anyone has a problem to be a hater or fanboy. Some are really proud haters and fanboys.
But these other insults have no basis and no balance. Just provocations on the lowest level to provoke me in the hope that I will continue on that level and get banned.

To the blue above - of course there are many that are neither.

"Continue", interesting choice of words - perhaps instead of writing posts that only discuss other posters or some sort of persecution, then addressing questions or points would serve you (and your fingers) better?

No need to 'praise me' for the above - I would much prefer an answer to my earlier question, than praise.

 

[Anonymous]

Great questions, The Hitch!
Like Speedway, I am looking forward to the responses.
Maybe Wonderlance will have to save the day?

Anyway, EPO is EPO, Dr Ferarri did NOT have access to a special vintage.

And the only thing special about the blood transfused was that it belonged to Lance in the first place.

But, does not a Master Chef work with the same ingredients as a less talented chef. Does not a Maestro work with the same notes as a lessor conductor?

The Great Ones possess knowledge. Exquisite knowledge about measurements and timing. Extremely rare talents that demand top dollar/euro.

All that said, to conclude that Lance was transformed by a programme from a Donkey into a Thoroughbred is just daft. Even a master chef cannot turn donkey meat into filet mignon.

This is why I respect your posts. Ferrari is a maestro, and you never hide from or ignore the obvious truth of any of this.

As for Lance being a donkey before, I have never ascribed to that theory. He did not show great GT promise, and that obviously changed. One thing left out is that there really is a difference in people in regards to focus and determination. It is clear to me that Armstrong possesses a level of determination not held by many people in the world, much less cycling. Many people who hate him poo poo this idea, but I actually believe it is more responsible for his success than the doping. He decided to do every single thing he could to improve his performance, and was meticulous in doing so. That does not mean that everyone else was lazy and just rode willy nilly and took some dope. But even in your own lives, you must recognize that you have met people who were more dedicated and focused in any given pursuit than everyone else. As I grow older, I have come to see that success is much more attributed to the work one is willing to put in. When you have two extremely talented people and one of them is willing to deconstruct every aspect of their endeavor, and seek to perfect all of those aspects, the guy who is most meticulous will win barring injury. Just look at anyone first in their class in any given college. I would be willing to bet that there are many people who graduated lower, who have a superior IQ. But the person who is first in their class did everything they needed to do to attain that spot. That does not mean those below them are lazy or didn't work as hard as they could or anything like that. It just means that in the pursuit of that goal, one person will do more and come out on top. I believe that is what we have with Lance. He outworked mentally, and physically the others who were as physiologically talented (and in Ulrich's case, more talented), and part of that was hiring the guy who knew how to craft the best medical program. If you are a person who is meticulous and exacting about every inch of your body and equipment, why would you do anything else?

 

[Indurain]

If Armstrong got his gains by training that much harder, smarter, etc than everyone else in the peleton he would have burnt out long ago. I don't think there is much difference between him and other GT contenders like Ullrich, et al. when they all hit peak. The body will only go so hard before you start losing power because you can't recover quick enough.

He certainly had a transformation. Probably the greatest ever known (from non-climber, non-timetrialler to perhaps the best ever known at both disciplines???) Probably could have got he hour record if he wanted to. Nothing but Meticulous drug taking or life saving genetic manipulation could have turned him into that. While his 93 worlds was impressive (but wouldn't have won had it been dry), he certainly wasn't any throroughbred.