What gave Lance the better programme?

[python]

....an aquaintance/fellow rider who happens to be an oncologist/researcher once told me he thought the secret to Lance's success could be found in the drugs that Lance had taken during his cancer treatment and continued to take well after the fact....in his opinion these drugs ( and gawd knows how he knew this...but as researcher he was really connected...) were masking agents of a very high order...in fact the money line was something like this..."these drugs create a hole in the drug regs so big you could drive a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph and not touch anything"..

if i were you, i'd ask your oncology acquaintance WHAT drugs exactly he meant. i promise to come back with a considered technical comment because i personally know some of the best oncologists in the business.

regarding ferrari's exclusive deal with texas...if i'm not mistaken, this was first brought up by d. walsh and subsequently was part of the sca proceedings. can anyone dig out what were la's responses to direct questioning regarding the exclusive deal. that would end any speculation and shed much light on the matter.

 

[Benotti69]

....

....an aquaintance/fellow rider who happens to be an oncologist/researcher once told me he thought the secret to Lance's success could be found in the drugs that Lance had taken during his cancer treatment and continued to take well after the fact....in his opinion these drugs ( and gawd knows how he knew this...but as researcher he was really connected...) were masking agents of a very high order...in fact the money line was something like this..."these drugs create a hole in the drug regs so big you could drive a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph and not touch anything"..

I call BS. why? well let's see he recovered fully from Cancer in 98 and was back riding the 99 Tdf, where he has tested positive for Coritcoid and EPO so how did these so called cancer treatments mask again? As i say more fanboy BS.

and if this was the case that these cancer treatment medications masked 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' how come lots of ex USPS/Discovery riders got caught if they knew about these CTMs (Cancer Treatment Masks)? is this LAs secret and he did not use this info to tell the USPS team they won't get caught because we are using the CTMs and we can drive 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' also known as the 'blue train'....

..again more BS from the fanboy corner where they are digging in rubbish skips in the desperate hope to explain the 7 Tdfs wins was fair even if he was doped , everyone was, so there, "my LA on dope is bigger than your truth"

 

[ultimobici]

If you think linearly that could work.

Not really.
Until there was a test for EPO in place a rider only had to ensure they were below the 50HCT level. As long as they managed that they were not running the risk of a "health break".
So that effectively capped the amount one could top up by. If rider A was naturally at 40HCT they could up their HCT by almost 25%, whereas rider B, with a natural level of 45HCT, could only up their HCT by 11%. That's a massive difference, with rider B effectively handicapped after dope.

The EPO era has been referred to as an arms race. Prior to this arms race, riders were in great part on a level field. Testing for amphetamine, cortisone & testosterone was effective if & when used, although riders were very often warned. Thus rider who chose not to imbibe had a real chance of success and attendant glory.
The advent of EPO, HGH & blood manipulation skewed the situation so much that it was almost impossible to get away from the peleton unless you were on "gear".
Riders who have confessed have used the excuse "we were all using the same weapons". I disagree.

Pre EPO/HGH era - akin to a WW1 or WW2 dogfight. Tactics, flying ability & accuracy of fire could overcome a bigger faster opponent.

EPO era and onwards - akin to modern aerial combat. Having EPO is like having radar & guided missiles, you can engage your opponent before he even has you in range.

 

[ultimobici]

Wow! Ugromov gets doped up to 60% and all for a 3rd in the Giro.

So a high Hct isn't the be all and end all then!

Not when you're 34 and riding shotgun to the defending Giro champion, 24 year old Evgeni Berzin.

 

[hrotha]

Not when you're 34 and riding shotgun to the defending Giro champion, 24 year old Evgeni Berzin.

Also, that list doesn't say those riders only started taking EPO in 1994. Ugrumov was a bit of a nobody until he came 2nd in the 1993 Giro, at 32, although to be fair he was 8th in 1990 and as a Soviet rider he hadn't had the opportunity to turn pro until pretty late in his life.

 

[Cobblestoned]

 

[python]

do you have some substance to add, stoned ?

 

[Cobblestoned]

do you have some substance to add, stoned ?

No, all said.
My job is done here and I flattened out the way to the truth.

Just go on with your rumors and big insidersknowledge. I like it to see people running in circles.
You seem to be the king of rumors and insidersknowledge in every kind.

 

[python]

No, all said.

then leave the scene for people who have real interest in the subject.
My job is done here and I flattened out the way to the truth.

I like it to see people running in circles.

i only saw you running in circles, never addressing questions, never discussing substance but profusely
generalizing and pigeon holing posters

You seem to be the king of rumors and insidersknowledge in every kind.

if you have information that contradicts what i post i'm all ears but i'm still to see one substantive post from you.

 

[Cobblestoned]

then leave the scene for people who have real interest in the subject.
My job is done here and I flattened out the way to the truth.
[..quote] I like it to see people running in circles.

i only saw you running in circles, never addressing questions, never discussing substance but profusely
generalizing and pigeon holing posters
You seem to be the king of rumors and insidersknowledge in every kind.[/QUOTE]if you have information that contradicts what i post i'm all ears but i'm still to see one substantive post from you.[/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
What a mess.
You seemed to have put me very, very deep in one of your drawers.
But I am happy that you didn´t close it yet.
Just have another look to what I wrote.
It´s your problem if you think that everything that doesn´t match your thoughts and contradicts with yours, is without substance.

I like facts so much.

 

[python]

What a mess.
You seemed to have put me very, very deep in one of your drawers.
But I am happy that you didn´t close it yet.
Just have another look to what I wrote.
It´s your problem if you think that everything that doesn´t match your thoughts and contradicts with yours, is without substance.

I like facts so much.

stop talking about hypothetical and address substance if you are capable of it. you asked for a link. it is there. now you need to verify that your knowledge was false because you don't want to read what contradicts your opinion about armstrong. this was noticed by many others.

 

[blutto]

if i were you, i'd ask your oncology acquaintance WHAT drugs exactly he meant. i promise to come back with a considered technical comment because i personally know some of the best oncologists in the business.

regarding ferrari's exclusive deal with texas...if i'm not mistaken, this was first brought up by d. walsh and subsequently was part of the sca proceedings. can anyone dig out what were la's responses to direct questioning regarding the exclusive deal. that would end any speculation and shed much light on the matter.[/QUOTE

...unfortunately I had dropped out of the local scene for a few years so am out the loop...will beat the bushes for that info...hopefully will be able to get an answer before this thread dies off....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Cobblestoned]

So sorry that I can´t express my opinion any more.
I am obviously (for me) flanked by some onesided mods/admins right now and I am a target of people who want to mouth-ban me, because they can´t handle me.
But no surprise for me, as I said earlier.
Seem to be many softy sneakers (Petzen/Anscheisser) here. I love them.
I hope these persons who called me headill and all these things, are not sanctioned and will still have a lot of fun here.
You have to know that I didn´t complain about them and I reacted with humor to their insults.

Reminds me of GDR what happens here. Its so obvious.

Just hate and you will be fine. Goodbye people. Makes no sense when the powerful people of this forum are agains people like me.

 

[blutto]

I call BS. why? well let's see he recovered fully from Cancer in 98 and was back riding the 99 Tdf, where he has tested positive for Coritcoid and EPO so how did these so called cancer treatments mask again? As i say more fanboy BS.

and if this was the case that these cancer treatment medications masked 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' how come lots of ex USPS/Discovery riders got caught if they knew about these CTMs (Cancer Treatment Masks)? is this LAs secret and he did not use this info to tell the USPS team they won't get caught because we are using the CTMs and we can drive 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' also known as the 'blue train'....

..again more BS from the fanboy corner where they are digging in rubbish skips in the desperate hope to explain the 7 Tdfs wins was fair even if he was doped , everyone was, so there, "my LA on dope is bigger than your truth"

...as a criminal you would like to get away with the crime clean would you not?...a real good way would be to keep your mouth shut...and besides the excuse to having these drugs in your system would be cancer which as far as I can tell is not an affliction that has affected too many people in the peleton...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

Not when you're 34 and riding shotgun to the defending Giro champion, 24 year old Evgeni Berzin.

..so EPO is not the end-all-be-all...and there are other factors...duhhh!...

Cheers

blutto

 

[ultimobici]

..so EPO is not the end-all-be-all...and there are other factors...duhhh!...

Cheers

blutto

Team politics are team politics and there's a limit to how much a EPO boosted HCT will trump that.

 

[blutto]

I call BS. why? well let's see he recovered fully from Cancer in 98 and was back riding the 99 Tdf, where he has tested positive for Coritcoid and EPO so how did these so called cancer treatments mask again? As i say more fanboy BS.

and if this was the case that these cancer treatment medications masked 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' how come lots of ex USPS/Discovery riders got caught if they knew about these CTMs (Cancer Treatment Masks)? is this LAs secret and he did not use this info to tell the USPS team they won't get caught because we are using the CTMs and we can drive 'a semi full of drugs thru it at 90mph' also known as the 'blue train'....

..again more BS from the fanboy corner where they are digging in rubbish skips in the desperate hope to explain the 7 Tdfs wins was fair even if he was doped , everyone was, so there, "my LA on dope is bigger than your truth"

...so let me get this straight...I get on GL's case I'm a LA fanboy and when I get on LA's case I'm a GL fanboy...my head is spinning....major existentialist crisis on the horizon...let me repeat myself...they are both jerks...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

if i were you, i'd ask your oncology acquaintance WHAT drugs exactly he meant. i promise to come back with a considered technical comment because i personally know some of the best oncologists in the business.

regarding ferrari's exclusive deal with texas...if i'm not mistaken, this was first brought up by d. walsh and subsequently was part of the sca proceedings. can anyone dig out what were la's responses to direct questioning regarding the exclusive deal. that would end any speculation and shed much light on the matter.[/QUOTE

...unfortunately I had dropped out of the local scene for a few years so am out the loop...will beat the bushes for that info...hopefully will be able to get an answer before this thread dies off....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Merckx index]

Blutto – for cyclists, which is the main subject of this forum, not to mention of the post of yours I was responding to, blood doping is the name of the game. If you know other PEDs that make a huge difference in cycling performance, I would be very interested to hear of them. Steroids, testosterone and amphetamines definitely do not make the grade. They may provide a little help, but nowhere near as much as blood doping (including EPO).

It may be that LA had access to some indetectable form of blood doping. PFC, an artificial oxygen vector, could be something worth looking into, as there is no test for it, and it's excreted through the lungs, not the urine. But this is not a matter of masking, just using an indetectable agent.

MV – I fail to see what a book on Tom Simpson has to say about LA’s program. I'm not going to buy the book to find out. If "it's all in there", how about a quote or two?

Python – I doubt LA would admit to much in the SCA hearings, but as I said to MV, I would be most interested to see this evidence of an exclusive deal, if it really exists. I'm not denying it could have happened, I just want to see the evidence. The fact that no one on this forum has yet been able to provide such evidence suggests that if it does exist, it is well hidden. It is definitely not "out there" in the way that the evidence for doping is.

 

[Barnaby]

To try to answer the original poster, an analogy:
You have 2 equally talented amateur artists.
You send one off to buy his brushes, paints and canvasses and he teaches himself.
You send the second one to Canaletto who chooses his brushes paints and canvasses and then teaches him.
Which of the 2 will be the more successful artist in a year's time?
Just trying to help.

 

[The Hitch]

To try to answer the original poster, an analogy:
You have 2 equally talented amateur artists.
You send one off to buy his brushes, paints and canvasses and he teaches himself.
You send the second one to Canaletto who chooses his brushes paints and canvasses and then teaches him.
Which of the 2 will be the more successful artist in a year's time?
Just trying to help.

But how do you know Lance went to the Canaletto and others didnt. Sure Ferrari was a known as a good doctor but my question is for more specifics as to what Lance was given by Ferrari that others didnt get.

So forget about brushes, what variable did Ferrari give Lance get that his competitors didnt get

 

[python]

dont be so quick mer. index. if people did not dig out the information yet, it does not mean it does not exist. people like rr and d.mas keep these files and referenced at hand. give them the chance or search too. unfortunately, i am moving around and my road laptop does not have the file or references.

as i said, i am pretty sure he first source of texas exclusive deal with ferrari was david walsh.

since then, the entire sca hearing record was leaked

armstrong was exposed to direct questioning about how much he paid ferrari, when he met him etc. i only don't recall all the answers he gave but he was pinned down with some evasions and lies...don't rush to judgment because even evasive answers are very telling.

 

[Barnaby]

But how do you know Lance went to the Canaletto and others didnt. Sure Ferrari was a known as a good doctor but my question is for more specifics as to what Lance was given by Ferrari that others didnt get.

So forget about brushes, what variable did Ferrari give Lance get that his competitors didnt get

Sheesh Look NO-ONE on this board can answer your need for specifics. ONLY FERRARI, LANCE AND BRUYNEEL KNOW and they are hardly likely to tell you are they?

 

[pnwrider]

But how do you know Lance went to the Canaletto and others didnt. Sure Ferrari was a known as a good doctor but my question is for more specifics as to what Lance was given by Ferrari that others didnt get.

So forget about brushes, what variable did Ferrari give Lance get that his competitors didnt get

The two most logical things I can think of, are knowing when the tests are coming A) (being able to run a higher HCT than most, and titrating down for the test). And B) access to the tests--it's rumored Ferrari has access to dope testing (and an army of Gran Fondo clients) so it's possible he has better intelligence on things like clearance time (that again let a client push the limits further.

 

[DirtyWorks]

UCI Complicity

In the ceaseless back-and-forth of this thread an important dynamic may have been mentioned, but probably not. A "better" doping program has the approval of the UCI.

It is now well established that the UCI plays a critical role in selecting their positives. Riders considered more valuable to the UCI show are given very wide berth.

A rider can dope with impunity when he knows the UCI won't announce a positive against him. A rider can institute a doping program for an entire team with confidence because he and his DS knows the riders critical to adding to the string of TdF wins won't get sanctioned.

I'm convinced that most of this thread is more noise to obfuscate some basic facts about doping in the UCI peloton, than it is an actual query for information.