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What gear is Horner on to make such outrageous statements like this ?

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whiteboytrash

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Thoughtforfood said:
Now we're talking! Made one state over from me. Nice bikes. I would own a Cervelo BTW..

Good article here re: bikes, Cervelo and sponsorship thereof....
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Just under a year ago the CSC professional cycling team—riding high with a Tour victory and years of stellar performances—entered into a de facto auction for its bike sponsor. In its hunt for money the team changed title from CSC to Saxo Bank - IT Factory. The IT Factory co-sponsorship (in fact the entire IT Factory company) would melt away as that firm’s managing director, Stein Bagger, was arrested and accused of engineering a Ponzi scheme.

The IT Factory sponsorship (entered into at the tail end of Bagger's fraudulent run); and the unprecedented sums required to be the team's new bike sponsor (reported to me by those directly involved in the negotiations); suggested to me that the posture of Bjarne Riis Cycling, owner of the Danish team, tilted toward money at the expense of due diligence and endemic technology partnerships. What has been the result of Riis Cycling's decisions, both on Cervelo, and the other involved parties?

I often accuse Gerard Vroomen, Cervelo’s president and co-founder, of spectacular good luck. Cervelo assembled a TT bike Tyler Hamilton, riding for then-Look-sponsored CSC, and he ignored it. Laurent Jalabert picked up the discard and said, “Hmm, interesting, and my size! I’ll ride it.” Jalabert commenced to prologue the P3 to a virtual dead heat lead. Has to be luck. Right? And it’s only been gravy and "good luck" since.
Every time Vroomen, or his company, or his sponsored team, exits a relationship, that bad omen turns out to be a blessing in disguise. Hamilton quits the team and, as soon as he puts enough distance between himself and CSC so to keep Cervelo safe from the shrapnel, he gets busted for drugs.

Enter Ivan Basso: Stellar TT results in a perfect position on a perfectly fitted P3 and then, busted. Basso was still with the team, still a Cervelo rider, at the commencement of his drug problems, but somehow this seemed not to spill over and onto the Cervelo headbadge.

And the victories kept coming. Zabriskie was a Cervelo sensation in time trials. He leaves for Slipsteam, no matter, then it’s Cancellara in the time trials. And Sastre wins the Tour aboard a Cervelo in 2008.

I don’t blame the rest of the bike world for having Cervelo envy. Specialized has endeavored hard to bag that maillot jaune in Paris. Reminiscent of Shimano trying to pull that yellow off Campagnolo's back all through the 80s and early 90s, here’s Specialized, doing everything “right.” Where’s the cosmic justice?
Several bike companies were involved in the Team Saxo Bank sweepstakes, and I don’t want to embarrass anyone, so I’ll just say that the sums I heard from several teams involved in the bidding were astounding. Certainly much more than a company the size of Cervelo can afford. In Specialized, Riis found a match: Riis wanted money, Specialized wanted palmares (so much so that Specialized sponsors 2 of the 16 Pro Tour Teams (Saxo Bank and Quickstep) as well as one Continental Pro team (ISD).

Indeed, were Cervelo to have bought itself back into its Saxo Bank bike sponsorship, it could’ve formed its own, smaller, Continental Pro team for that money. Obviously, that fact was not lost on Cervelo and its management.

The non-endemic sponsor money has dried up in the wake of cycling’s drug scandals and a ruinous economy. The teams have taken to squeezing the product sponsors. Read our interview with Oval Concepts’ Morgan Nicol for an insider’s take on this (there's a link at this OpEd's terminus). As existing contracts expire, the money it takes today to bike-sponsor a top cycling team has tripled, quadrupled, or quintupled over just the last three or four years.

I’m writing now in reference to two notables: the Cervelo Test Team is not one of the 16 Pro Tour Teams. It is a Continental Pro Team, one rung down in the food chain. Nevertheless, it is the top professional cycling team in the world as of this writing—besting year-to-date all the Pro Tour Teams—based on its performance so far in 2009. (This, prior to the Dauphine Libere.)
Second, this week the UCI threatens to release a list of up to 50 drug-tainted riders against whom they've built (what they claim is) a defensible case, some of whom have biological passports that show abnormal results. If the UCI is true to its word and doesn't wimp out (no certainty) teams will be forced to deal with this list. Sponsors—especially the non-endemics—aren’t likely sit still for tainted athletes wearing kits with their names ablazoned.

Nobody knows whose names will be associated with non-conforming biological passports. But this is known: Trek with Astana, Scott with Columbia-Highroad, Cannondale with Liquigas, Giant with Rabobank, and Specialized with its three teams, will all await the list. If and when that list contains companies' sponsored riders, they have limited power to act. They can only hope that the management of these teams doesn't bring embarrassment to their bike brands. While none of these companies can predict which of its sponsored riders will cheat, Cervelo alone has the power to respond to its athletes' bad acts directly.

This lack of control over bike makers' marketing investments didn't used to be a big deal. In today's doping environment, with this much money being asked of bike sponsors, it is. To misquote Churchill: Never was so much spent by so many to so few [Pro Tour teams]. Bike companies are going to rethink spending so much money for the right to provide bikes to be ridden by athletes on teams owned and managed by many of whom came out of the drug tainted era of the 1990s.
This'll be (I predict) the high water mark for money bike makers pay for teams they don't own. It’s hard to imagine large bike companies continuing to put that much money at risk year after year; sums that represent a huge portion of their promotional and marketing costs; sweating out the wait for the possible bad news of the tainted team rider; wondering whether the millions upon millions spent annually, just for the bike sponsorship—per each of the best Pro Tour teams—will go all for naught or, worse, will conspire to hurt a company’s image.

No, for that sort of money Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Giant, Scott, and maybe even Felt, will want their names on the jersey, first and largest (or if they're named behind a title sponsor it'll be their title sponsor, of a team they own). They'll want control of the doctors, directeurs sportif, coaches, riders, drivers, masseurs. They'll want what Cervelo has.
While Cervelo rides out its non-standard investment, Specialized appears cycling's George Steinbrenner. Maybe Specialized' gambit will pan out. Maybe one of the Schlecks will get Specialized its yellow. But isn't it nerve wracking watching star athletes (like Tom Boonen) who ride Specialized bikes get repeatedly busted for recreational drug usage? And wondering whether one of its high dollar prospects is going to be named as the carrier of a non-conforming biological passport? And knowing that you're not in control of the disposition of these cases?

Wouldn't it be better to stop buying into sponsorships of teams at their top? Rather to build, from the bottom up, a team that needs your technology? (Rather than one who tells you it needs your technology but, in fact, mostly needs your money?) In the mid-1990s Cofidis cut an athlete from its roster. That athlete couldn't find a mount. Trek made an investment. It sponsored that athlete and his team—something Trek helped build from the bottom up—and rode that investment to 7 Tour jerseys.

I'm guessing Scott, Trek, Cannondale and Giant are all closely watching the Cervelo experiment. I hope Specialized is as well. Since the non-endemic money is drying up anyway, how much better would it be for all these brands to build their own teams, not simply with their cash but with their expertise. Riis Cycling's bike company auction was a short-term success. In the longer term, Cervelo's reaction to the auction may represent the sustainable model.
 
elapid said:
...
Donati also said the cocaine is used by some in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms. It is utilised "mainly to compensate for the slump in mood and aggressiveness during the suspension of anabolic steroids or testosterone. There is the consequence of becoming addicted to both categories of substances."

Anecdotal evidence DEFINITELY lends credence to that statement based on what I saw. Whew! Aitor Gonzalez, anyone? Jordi Riera (both ex-Kelme). Pantani, JMJ, Spinelli, Clinger, etc. All anecdotal, of course...
 
Thoughtforfood said:
This is going to sound really snobbish, but unless I can call and talk to the guy who is building my frame, I don't see any exclusivity. Here is my new wet dream: http://speedvagen.com/
Not to spoil your birthday, but I used to live about six blocks west of the Vanilla warehouse, and still live close. No signs on the front, or anywhere. You have to know it's there. Never really even looked inside though. If you want, I can go over there and ask them if I can ride one and tell you how it feels. :cool:

Being close to 50, let me assure anyone that there are so many super high quality bikes out there now, it's so easy to find a superb bike. I started racing on a used Peugeot PX-10. Try riding one of those if you want to know what a real bike was. This may sound odd, but I still think the best bike I ever had was an old TVT carbon. Loved that bike.

Yes, agree that there's no cachet about Trek anymore. 15 years ago they made some unique bikes. They may not have been great, but they were varied, and a little bold. Now, they all look the same. I don't even look too much when I see Cervelo, or Sevens, etc.

Though I have yet to see anyone on the road ride one of these, and I'd like to have one custom fit for me, as the older and creaky I get, the more cushy ride I seek, and I really like the super low carbon footprint concept:

bamboosmall.jpg
 
lower than oem price carbon sells for $2-3k...

Alpe d'Huez said:
Not to spoil your birthday, but I used to live about six blocks west of the Vanilla warehouse, and still live close. No signs on the front, or anywhere. You have to know it's there. Never really even looked inside though. If you want, I can go over there and ask them if I can ride one and tell you how it feels. :cool:

Being close to 50, let me assure anyone that there are so many super high quality bikes out there now, it's so easy to find a superb bike. I started racing on a used Peugeot PX-10. Try riding one of those if you want to know what a real bike was. This may sound odd, but I still think the best bike I ever had was an old TVT carbon. Loved that bike.

Yes, agree that there's no cachet about Trek anymore. 15 years ago they made some unique bikes. They may not have been great, but they were varied, and a little bold. Now, they all look the same./QUOTE]

Not to thread hijack, but ... bikes became tools for me in the latter years of my career. No artistic cache, not mystery, etc. Once most of the carbon production was off-shored to Taiwan, and then to China, the notion of old-world-craftsmanship in Italian bikes fell apart for me. Granted, there are still some BRANDS that do a good job of maintaining the mystique, but you guys who haven't been to the factories in PRC or Taiwan might not believe what it really costs the bike company to buy the carbon frame and fork from the manufacturer. We're talking $2500USD retail frame for $300USD, landed, maybe.

i'm still a sucker though, so I'd like to get a Wilier or a real De Rosa some day. until then, I'm going the route of high-performance all-carbon frames and forks from Asia made in the same moulds as all the big dog companies but unbranded and cheap! Like $400-500USD for frame, fork, headset, seat clamp.

You build it and, assuming you're using the same gruppo as a 'nago or Trek or whomever...there's not much likelihood in finding true functional differences.

Anyway, if you wanna explore getting a back-up or front line all carbon bike from Asia, PM me and we can chat. It's the latest Asian-import I'm working on!

PS. When is the TdF Positive-Drug-Test/Death Pool starting up, and where?
 
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joe_papp said:
PS. When is the TdF Positive-Drug-Test/Death Pool starting up, and where?


Someone had to say it - it was only a matter of time (that, and proximity to the TdF).

If and when that pool starts, I'll place a bet or two. Similar to watching a train wreck, one can't help but watch the slow carnage and wonder. The "end" game is quite fascinating.
 
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Horner is on the Johan Bruyneel "equipment", aka school of doping. Popovich is another one. Terrible season last year with Lotto, a sudden resurgence this year. And then there is Kloeden who we now know doped for a long time with Telekom/T-Mobile, but yet his performances haven't dropped off now that he's with Johan. Don't even get me started on Armstrong. Please don't tell me this is due to some great training or leadership or some other BS.
 
A

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elapid said:
Further to this, at the Play The Game Conference last week, Italian anti-doping expert Sandro Donati stated there was a direct correlation between recreational cocaine use and the abuse of performance enhancing drugs. He went on to say:

"I don't understand when, every time an athlete is positive for cocaine, that the sporting institutions immediately explain that it is not for performance, it is only for personal use."

"This is an incredible explanation. I was a coach and I know very well the mental balance of the athlete. It is impossible for someone who uses cocaine for his personal life to have a good balance...because the role of the athlete is very complex.

"It means that someone involved in the use of cocaine is not a normal athlete. It means that the using is only a compensation for other using [of drugs]...the cocaine is only the tip of the iceberg."

Donati also said the cocaine is used by some in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms. It is utilised "mainly to compensate for the slump in mood and aggressiveness during the suspension of anabolic steroids or testosterone. There is the consequence of becoming addicted to both categories of substances."

This guy sounds like he knows a lot about sports doping and what he says about "good balance" makes good sense even if it sounds a bit stilted.

But it doesn't sound like he knows much about cocaine.

Coke would be very little help to "compensate for the slump in mood" as it is a drug that very quickly, after the initial rush that doesn't really last very long, creates a slump in mood. Coming down off a coke high is a very anxious experience, hence the insidious nature of the drug. The only cure for the tremendous anxiety you feel coming down, is to do more of the drug.

I haven't heard coke descibed as crack in these articles so I'm thinking they're talking about powdered cocaine as the drug of choice with Boonen and other athletes.

I don't know much about the crack high.

When he says "aggressiveness during the suspension of anabolic steroids" hasn't he got it backwards?
 
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there will probabl be a response to my post that thinks I am either a-naive or b-really naive.

Wasn't there an article or mention during the Giro how Horner was going to get his traditional rest day meal of McDonalds? Now lets assume he gave up junk food it is entirely possible a pro-athlete to shed excess pounds if suddenly they aren't consuming vast amounts of calories in poor food choices. Now I am not a biologist or physiologist so then how can I make such a statement?

It's simple, I gave up powerbars and energy bars just about a year ago. I ride a lot (4400+ miles last year) with an average pace between 17-18 mph and I lost in the last year 20lbs. Moreover I've found I only need to consume food on rides longer than 70 miles in order to keep my energey up. The result of this is that I am faster, even going uphill. So it is entirely concieveable to me that Horner would improve if he lost 10lbs.

Regardless of this I'm positive someone will come along and say it isn't possible and that he is guilty by association of doping. Eh, to each their own.