What in your mind makes for a great Tour de France?

[El Pistolero]

2007 TDF route was the best since a while IMO. Incredibly balanced route.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You could easily have lots of people in contention until the final day, by simply not putting any GC-relevant stages before then.

It would be tight, but inestimably boring.

 

[Campionissimo]

The Tour of 2003 was Unbelievable. The domination of Petacchi in the sprints, the great victory of Mayo on Alpe d' Huez, the time trial of Ullrich and of course the duel between Armstrong and Ullrich in the Pyrenees... nostalgia! That race made me cycling addict.

Especially that time trial of Ullrich was formidable, what a athlete!

 

[ElChingon]

Rivalries!

The love hugs really makes the Tour riders look like a bunch of #@&$. Its like racing has turned into a love in from the '60's. Where are the classic battles and post race criticism and taunting of the rivals, name calling, post race altercations? Are the current crop of racers the ones brought up in the everyone gets a trophy generation? I'm surprised Bernard Hinault actually shakes their hands during the podium presentation. These years will be known for hugs not any classic rivalry, it is lost, till its back it will be the weak years of le Tour.

 

[El Pistolero]

Rivalries!

The love hugs really makes the Tour riders look like a bunch of #@&$. Its like racing has turned into a love in from the '60's. Where are the classic battles and post race criticism and taunting of the rivals, name calling, post race altercations? Are the current crop of racers the ones brought up in the everyone gets a trophy generation? I'm surprised Bernard Hinault actually shakes their hands during the podium presentation. These years will be known for hugs not any classic rivalry, it is lost, till its back it will be the weak years of le Tour.

2009 Tour is only remembered because of a rivalry.

 

[rzombie1988]

Some different things I would do to make a great TdF:

Rules:
- Time bonuses. There's no reason not to. It can make for an interesting first week and prevent "gifts". If anyone has a legit argument against these, I would be interested to hear it.
- More sprints on flat stages. Make the intermediate sprints all worth the same as the finishing sprint. Then there in theory would be a couple of exciting sprints per race.

Stages:
- Shorten sprint stages. Does anyone watch for more than the last 10 miles? I have much better things to do then watch Cav take a stroll through Paris. I know some people said the Giro had too many mountains and not enough sprints, but I'll bet those same people watched the mountain stages for longer periods of time then they would have if they were sprints.
- Stay with the opening flat stage. Anyone can win one of these and people put in extra effort.
- Eliminate the TTT. It doesn't add much, though this years was exciting. If there must be one though and it takes the place of a flat stage, I'll take it.
- Add a cobbles stage. It's exciting and makes for a free-for-all. Most of the time, the cobble stages are the most memorable.
- More stages with hills as the finish. A few of those were quite exciting this year.
- I'd like to see more TT's. They aren't the most exciting sometimes but they can really be deciding factors. It also gives different people chances at doing something. I'd take TT's over flat stages if it came to it. Atleast you know you'll get to see all the big names going at it.

Teams:
- I think that anyone who made the top 3 or top 5 each year should be in it the next year. It is total bs that Menchov did not make it this year and it looked really akward when they showed last year's top 10, and he was maybe the only person missing.
- Slow down on the French teams. I know it's the tour and they want french teams, but a few them don't belong or are borderline. Yeah a few FDJ guys have been in breaks but it's not like they are going to win it. Take Sandy Casar off that team and I bet they wouldn't get chosen.
- Maybe add one more team over the usual limit like the Giro did. It's the tour and everyone wants to be in, and with some of the teams automatically in, it leaves for few choices.
- Finally, even though this is realistically never going to happen, I'd love to see a type of "best-of" team. Take some of the bigger names whose teams didn't make the tour and put them all on the same team. I think alot of times teams are chosen just for one or two guys with a bunch of dead space. This would solve that problem. I realize this is not feasible and probably impossible, but it's an idea. Kind of a tribute to the old days with riders without real teams.

Even with all of my suggestions, there is no gurantee on a good tour. The riders and attacks make it good.

I do think that overall people are way too spoiled. All of the "The Giro sucked" talks were ridiculous. I've personally enjoyed the last few tours and thought this tour in particular has been quite eventful.

 

[The Barb]

Great post Rzombie. Hard to disagree with much you say (although I do like that they have gotten away from the imortance of ITTs and wouldn't like to see more included).

 

[Mambo95]

I'd like to see a mountain time trial again. We haven't had one since 2004. Unfortunately, a lot of fans couldn't behave themselves that day, so it's probably on the back burner.

 

[Campionissimo]

the biggest problem is the mentality of the gc riders. There is no Pantani of Vino who have the guts to attack earlier and make the race attractive for the fans.

 

[Pantani_lives]

A big rivalry between two opposite personalities.
1984 Fignon-Hinault
1986 Lemond-Hinault
1987 Roche-Delgado
1989 Lemond-Fignon
1992 Indurain-Chiappucci
1993 Indurain-Rominger
1998 Pantani-Ullrich

I was hoping the rivalry between Contador and Andy Schleck would evolve into something like this, but we just haven't seen enough open battle between them.

 

[Mambo95]

- Time bonuses. There's no reason not to. It can make for an interesting first week and prevent "gifts". If anyone has a legit argument against these, I would be interested to hear it.

For the argument against them, you have to look at the last Tour in which they were used - 2007. Contador beat Evans by just 23 seconds, and he had gained 20 seconds over Evans from bonuses. That wasn't the problem.

What was a problem is that Rasmussen, who was high up in a lot of stages getting bonuses, and Vino who had also won a stage being kicked out of the race. Coupled with Landis the year before, I think the ASO could see a situation where a rider could be DQed and not only lose his results, but cause an impact on the result due to the bonuses they had gained. They could see the potential for an absolute nightmare

The next year Ricco, Kohl and Schumacher were all busted at the Tour, while at the Vuelta, Contador beat Leipheimer purely on time bonuses (they had the exact same time). Combine the two and there's a possibility of a compete farce.

 

[ggusta]

Have all the main GC guys ride at least one GT in the season prior to the TDF just to even the playing field. Just kidding, this is an interesting thread. Too interesting for me to say anything of substance. As usual!

 

[Mambo95]

Rules:
- Time bonuses. There's no reason not to. It can make for an interesting first week and prevent "gifts". If anyone has a legit argument against these, I would be interested to hear it.
- More sprints on flat stages. Make the intermediate sprints all worth the same as the finishing sprint. Then there in theory would be a couple of exciting sprints per race.

Rather than flogging the sprinters half to death like some sort of pack animal, why don't we combine these two ideas and have big time bonuses (but no points) at some intermediate sprints. At the moment the Green Jersey contenders have to work hard every day, the yellow jersey contenders work hard for maybe six or seven.

Let's see flat intermediate sprints with the likes of Contador, Evans and Schleck battling it out with lead-out trains.

 

[El Pistolero]

Rather than flogging the sprinters half to death like some sort of pack animal, why don't we combine these two ideas and have big time bonuses (but no points) at some intermediate sprints. At the moment the Green Jersey contenders have to work hard every day, the yellow jersey contenders work hard for maybe six or seven.

Let's see flat intermediate sprints with the likes of Contador, Evans and Schleck battling it out with lead-out trains.

MJ contenders have to work hard every day.

Cav would still be leading the points classification even if he didn't sprint once in an intermediate sprint! The new rules are THAT pathetic.

 

[gerrans for the win]

A big rivalry between two opposite personalities.
1984 Fignon-Hinault
1986 Lemond-Hinault
1987 Roche-Delgado
1989 Lemond-Fignon
1992 Indurain-Chiappucci
1993 Indurain-Rominger
1998 Pantani-Ullrich

I was hoping the rivalry between Contador and Andy Schleck would evolve into something like this, but we just haven't seen enough open battle between them.

i was thinking the same thing last night watching the stage,

think we have one this year cav-hole of movistar team

would love to see teams limited to 7 riders make it hard to chase breaks back an lead outs

 

[rzombie1988]

For the argument against them, you have to look at the last Tour in which they were used - 2007. Contador beat Evans by just 23 seconds, and he had gained 20 seconds over Evans from bonuses. That wasn't the problem.

What was a problem is that Rasmussen, who was high up in a lot of stages getting bonuses, and Vino who had also won a stage being kicked out of the race. Coupled with Landis the year before, I think the ASO could see a situation where a rider could be DQed and not only lose his results, but cause an impact on the result due to the bonuses they had gained. They could see the potential for an absolute nightmare

The next year Ricco, Kohl and Schumacher were all busted at the Tour, while at the Vuelta, Contador beat Leipheimer purely on time bonuses (they had the exact same time). Combine the two and there's a possibility of a compete farce.

Well Rasmussen is a whole different subject, but I don't think he should have gotten kicked off.

You can't change tour plans though because of cheaters.

 

[El Pistolero]

For the argument against them, you have to look at the last Tour in which they were used - 2007. Contador beat Evans by just 23 seconds, and he had gained 20 seconds over Evans from bonuses. That wasn't the problem.

What was a problem is that Rasmussen, who was high up in a lot of stages getting bonuses, and Vino who had also won a stage being kicked out of the race. Coupled with Landis the year before, I think the ASO could see a situation where a rider could be DQed and not only lose his results, but cause an impact on the result due to the bonuses they had gained. They could see the potential for an absolute nightmare

The next year Ricco, Kohl and Schumacher were all busted at the Tour, while at the Vuelta, Contador beat Leipheimer purely on time bonuses (they had the exact same time). Combine the two and there's a possibility of a compete farce.

That's actually the first decent reason I heard for not having anymore bonus seconds in the Tour.

 

[Mambo95]

Well Rasmussen is a whole different subject, but I don't think he should have gotten kicked off.

You can't change tour plans though because of cheaters.

You change it to avoid a potential calamity though. The names involved aren't important, it's the situation.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong (personally I dislike bonuses*), but you can see there's some merit in not having them.


*I don't think it makes for more attacking riding. It just makes the faster sprinters of the GC men ride conservatively, rather than the TT riders (and 'sprinters' are generally the more attacking types).

 

[Elminutobueno]

Back in the 90's, there where time bonusses only on the first stages, until the first mountain stage. That was a good solution, plenty of leaders changes during the first week, but it didn't change anything between GC contenders

 

[VeloGirl]

It's no secret I am for time bonuses, but I think they should only be used in mountain top finishes - that promotes racing. Limit the amount of places bonuses are given...just the top 3 or top 5.

I do see the problems with giving time bonuses for every stage or on sprint stages - I am okay with not having them there. I think time bonuses on sprint stages would make the bunch sprint that much more dangerous - we don't need/want that.

But just think about if we only had them on mountain top finishes - or even give them on every mountain pass (1st thru 3rd person over).

 

[Finn84]

With the route used in 2008 I saw it understandable to not have time bonuses.

Imagine if first stage (mass start) had been won in a breakaway, which contained five riders. Just calling these riders with letters A, B, C, D, E.

Traditional time bonuses at that point were 6-4-2 in intermediate sprints and 20-12-8 in stage finish.

Intermediate sprint 1: B, C, D
Intermediate sprint 2: B, E, C
Intermediate sprint 3: D, B, A

The five riders get the same time in the finish, with the top 3 being: A, B, C

In total, the riders get time bonuses as follows.
A gets 22 seconds
B gets 28 seconds
C gets 14 seconds
D gets 8 seconds
E gets 4 seconds

Therefore, despite A winning the stage, B takes the yellow jersey!

 

[the asian]

from my relatively limited experience watching an entire TdF since 2009:

2009 arcalis when contador broke ranks and climbed and his ITT sold me on him. that TdF is so far my favorite and made me watch in 2010.

but after TdF 2010, i was hungry for the racing, the pelaton, the 3 week drama, the landscape of a country with a language and culture i've never seen. i had to watch the vuelta d' espana. the vuelta lead to watching these amazing athletes in 2011 LBL, the giro d'italia, the ToC, and ToS. i'm hooked, lol... must make room for watching cycling.

and i'm getting an opinion.

i do not want to watch cunego lose an ITT to leipheimer after a week of admiring cunego's attacking, descending, hanging close in the sprint stages, and then get pipped by seconds for the tour win by a rider who was not impressive during as many stages in the way cunego was. levi did not ride a spectacular ITT but miserly did just enough to snag the win.

the point: now dread such a win. it doesn't matter who or where the rider was born. even tejay winning like levi ToS would be depressing.

my opinion is that the vuelta 2010 design with the queen mountain stage the day before the ride into madrid, inspired a performance at the top of a mountain from a rider who rode a challenging ITT ( nibali had time for a mechanical!); a rider i wasn't cheering to win but he made a fan out of me. nibali showed great heart and courage. and i had been cheering for frank schleck after andy was thrown out by riis.

a big mountain top finish following the ITT prevents the calculated but dull style overall win or at least brings out attacking and courageous mountain performance from the defending leader post ITT. i may be getting ahead of things.

a 3 v 1 week tour, surviving the extended time in itself perhaps makes me respect the win no matter how it's done. i'll suspend judgement and watch

Agree. Problem in the Tour is You hardly get any mountains near paris. if there is a mountain stage before the last stage, I think there will be problems in transfering the race to paris the next day. Perhaps they can include a climb of the Puy De dome near Clermont ferrand after a ITT and before the last stage. I think it's a hors catagory climb and probably the nearest to paris.

 

[the asian]

It's no secret I am for time bonuses, but I think they should only be used in mountain top finishes - that promotes racing. Limit the amount of places bonuses are given...just the top 3 or top 5.

I do see the problems with giving time bonuses for every stage or on sprint stages - I am okay with not having them there. I think time bonuses on sprint stages would make the bunch sprint that much more dangerous - we don't need/want that.

But just think about if we only had them on mountain top finishes - or even give them on every mountain pass (1st thru 3rd person over).

I think the reason they eliminated the time bonuses was, the notion that the favourites would be marking each other tightly and prevent a favourite from winning a staqe . However now it seems time bonuses for mountain top stages is a better choice.

 

[Cimber]

What in your mind makes for a great Tour de France?

It will be a great Tour if the bros get thir a**es kicked good and hard. Especially if its Bertie or Basso setting them straight in the alps.

Anyways thats just for the rest of this tour.

In generel I would say first and foremost less favorites should crash our or loose significant time due to crashes. A short TT before the mountains would also be good as that would force more favorites to attack more and risk more in the first mountain stages.

 

[Dermie]

Cadel crying on the top step in Paris, crying!!