What is the perfect Grand Tour?

[RedheadDane]

I liked last years first week for example. Cobbles, Prologue, hilly stages. Only the wind in Denmark was hyped to much.

I see it has started; people mistakenly referring to the current year as "last year" in the late parts of the year.
Public Service Info: It's still 2022. The Tour which started in Denmark, and was won by Jonas Vingegaard, is in fact this year's Tour. I just don't understand why people keep doing this. It's not even a confuses 'year' for 'season' thing; in road racing, the 'season' follow the year.
As for last year's Tour; VDP winning on Muur de Bretagne, and claiming the yellow jersey his grandfather never even got to wear was a highlight for me, especially the way he did it. But that's a rider-thing, not a route-thing.

My perfect Tour (I know France's geography much better than Italy's or Spain's) start on a Wednesday

Now, that's a radical new approach!

 

[Extinction]

I see it has started; people mistakenly referring to the current year as "last year" in the late parts of the year.
Public Service Info: It's still 2022. The Tour which started in Denmark, and was won by Jonas Vingegaard, is in fact this year's Tour. I just don't understand why people keep doing this. It's not even a confuses 'year' for 'season' thing; in road racing, the 'season' follow the year.
As for last year's Tour; VDP winning on Muur de Bretagne, and claiming the yellow jersey his grandfather never even got to wear was a highlight for me, especially the way he did it. But that's a rider-thing, not a route-thing.



Now, that's a radical new approach!

How about just the "last Tour?"

 

[RedheadDane]

Hmm, one thing I like are those "medium stages"; not high mountains, not flat. Those up-down, left-right, in-out all day stages; could be a sprint among the stronger sprinters, could go to the break - preferably with it only becoming clear what way it'll swing in the last five Ks - or could go to a late attack from one of the favourites.

 

[OlavEH]

I actually think a GC without high mountains could work as well. As the designs for the stages are good.

It is never going to happen, but it would be interesting to see one version without high mountains. Where the toughest stage was something like a Vosges stages with a Petit Ballon - Platzerwasel - Le Markstein finish. Other important stages could be:

• A cobblestone stage, perhaps in Belgium in the first weekend.
• A sterrato stage, but better what we saw in the Femmes Tour this year.
• A couple of Ardennes like hilly stages, perhaps something including a couple of proper muritos.
• At least two or three big medium mountain stages like the mentioned Vosges stage and a upscaled Nice finish like in PN.

At the moment Pogacar would probably dominate a Tour like this too much that it would be entertaining, but the concept is interesting.

 

[tobydawq]

It is never going to happen, but it would be interesting to see one version without high mountains. Where the toughest stage was something like a Vosges stages with a Petit Ballon - Platzerwasel - Le Markstein finish. Other important stages could be:

• A cobblestone stage, perhaps in Belgium in the first weekend.
• A sterrato stage, but better what we saw in the Femmes Tour this year.
• A couple of Ardennes like hilly stages, perhaps something including a couple of proper muritos.
• At least two or three big medium mountain stages like the mentioned Vosges stage and a upscaled Nice finish like in PN.

At the moment Pogacar would probably dominate a Tour like this too much that it would be entertaining, but the concept is interesting.

Wout.

 

[OlavEH]

Wout.

Yep. But he could also struggle in a hilly stage with some proper muritos and a couple of big medium mountain stages with consecutive climbs with longer sections of 9-10 % or more.

 

[Netserk]

The overall design is more important than X kilometers of ITT or Y number of MTF. And for Le Tour, there are serious geographic limitations when it comes to covering all regions in two, three year cycles. Not that ASO cares about it, but as a fan, I do. Until I get what I want, I'll give GTs an 8.

My perfect Tour (I know France's geography much better than Italy's or Spain's) start on a Wednesday,, and as a fan I like a prologue to start or a short, less than 15 km ITT. I try to gauge/guess the riders' form, read what you folks post, that's a great beginning. Small time gaps to defend the next day on hilly terrain, say Ardennes, or if the route is different, maybe wind coastal start and hilly finish in northern Bretagne. Friday is OK for a TTT, cobbled stage, and Saturday and Sunday two medium mountain stages with multiple good climbs towards the finish. A Vosges/Jura combo maybe, or Super-Jura and a Swiss finish. On the other side, the Massif Central offers limited options, but Puy Mary-Perthus is no picnic on a Sunday, for example. And it's a good TV week-end for the fans, which must be there to get a 10. No crappy stages on the week-end!!!

Monday off (I know Netserk, but I don't want busted riders blaming me for their doping). Rest day it is, and on Tuesday, it all depends on where the route is. BUT: in the entire design, my wish is only one pure sprinter stage, and we can make it the longest stage of the race. Nantes-Bordeaux at the '84 TdF, 338 km, and The Great Jan Raas prevailed. Every flat or flat-ish stage profile must contain a healthy dose of sterrato,, cobbles, finish with hills and muritos.

Like many, I want different types of mountain stage designs, but more than anything, novelty. Maybe a finish after a short descent from Ventoux/Bedouin to the Mont Serein resort? Sarenne-AdH descent-Sabot newly gravelled MTF? Or a Cote de Laffrey finish after an up-and-down around Grenoble. I'd like to see Glieres as a MTF finish. Madeleine via La Chambre short descent, Lachat and it's brutal finish. Pays Basque...

In my model, stages 3 and 4 were mountainous. The ideal is no more than three consecutive mountain stages, and only if two of them are medium mountain stages. And they happen on the weekends. Therefore stages 9 and 10 are weekend mountain stages. 15 and 16 also are week-end mountain stages. That's when the ITT comes stage 16 (the last Tuesday), or rather the next day. Two more mountain stages, or two medium, one high altitude. Then Paris. And every other year, skip the stage 16 ITT, and have it in Paris. There will be drama, podium spots on the line, maybe the overall win in the balance, an all-day event for us to appreciate.

Call me dumb, and idealist, a stoner (and you may be true), yes, at times, riders make the race: The greats do. Pogacar made the '22 TdF great. Hinault made '80 LBL great, Ocana made the '71 TdF great, Nibali dominated the '14 Tour before it even started. Roche's '87 campaign is a thing of beauty, but we grew accustomed to bots and predictable outcomes. Riders don't but they can make the race.

I have spent an hour on this, no more edits and style. I give myself an 8.

Rest days are tolerated when you start on a Wednesday, like in 1987. Back then they would also have two stages in one day (link), which really is no problem when they start as late as 10:20; a proper total distance of 4231 km; an ITT of 87.5 km; and 23 teams at the start with a total of 207 riders.

Bring back great Grand Tours!

 

[OlavEH]

Rest days are tolerated when you start on a Wednesday, like in 1987. Back then they would also have two stages in one day (link), which really is no problem when they start as late as 10:20; a proper total distance of 4231 km; an ITT of 87.5 km; and 23 teams at the start with a total of 207 riders.

Bring back great Grand Tours!

Have you been kidnapped by @houtdffan?

 

[tobydawq]

Rest days are tolerated when you start on a Wednesday, like in 1987. Back then they would also have two stages in one day (link), which really is no problem when they start as late as 10:20; a proper total distance of 4231 km; an ITT of 87.5 km; and 23 teams at the start with a total of 207 riders.

Bring back great Grand Tours!

You're just a fan of large numbers?

 

[Netserk]

Have you been kidnapped by @houtdffan?

Well, I don't see what wouldn't be great about it, if modern Tours had a big dose of the 1980s.

Even this beauty only saw gaps within 2'29'' between the top 4 in the final GC:

 

[Netserk]

You're just a fan of large numbers?

Less is not more. More is more, and more is different.

 

[OlavEH]

Well, I don't see what wouldn't be great about it, if modern Tours had a big dose of the 1980s.

Even this beauty only saw gaps within 2'29'' between the top 4 in the final GC:

Don't know about the 80s, but the standard Tour a few years later with 5-6 mountain stages, at least 3 ITTs/TTTs and 10 or more flat stages were pretty uniform. Some minor tweaks on the routes like this year would be much better.

 

[RedheadDane]

Rest days are tolerated when you start on a Wednesday, like in 1987.

Oh, didn't realise there had already been a GT starting on a Wednesday, thought Tonton was just being different.
But as we I have already established; 1987, and earlier, is a very long time ago.

 

[Netserk]

Don't know about the 80s, but the standard Tour a few years later with 5-6 mountain stages, at least 3 ITTs/TTTs and 10 or more flat stages were pretty uniform. Some minor tweaks on the routes like this year would be much better.

Stage 7 was the first bunch sprint in 1987. There was a total of 4 stages won in a bunch sprint (out of 25 stages and a prologue).

 

[OlavEH]

Stage 7 was the first bunch sprint in 1987. There was a total of 4 stages won in a bunch sprint (out of 25 stages and a prologue).

On wikipedia 12 of the stages are described as "plain". If they were really plain, I don't think there would be only 4 bunch sprints with the current peloton.

 

[Netserk]

On wikipedia 12 of the stages are described as "plain". If they were really plain, I don't think there would be only 4 bunch sprints with the current peloton.

This year's Tour had 5 similarly "plain" stages that weren't a bunch sprint.

I'm not asking for a reanimation of the past routes, I'm asking for a partial return to the spirit of those routes. The actual modern design would not serve 10 bunch sprint stages on a platter.

 

[houtdffan]

Have you been kidnapped by @houtdffan?

Now hey,

An 87km ITT is just a bit too far. I'd only go for an 80km max if and only if the race starts with a ~20km ITT on Stage 1. That would still yield ~100 flat ITT km

87 should be a TTT length

 

[OlavEH]

This year's Tour had 5 similarly "plain" stages that weren't a bunch sprint.

I'm not asking for a reanimation of the past routes, I'm asking for a partial return to the spirit of those routes. The actual modern design would not serve 10 bunch sprint stages on a platter.

This year's Tour had 6 stages described as flat on wiki. 4 of them ended with a mass sprint. And a fifth with Laporte winning just beating the peloton.

This "spirit" always seem to include a very large amount of ITT/TTT.

 

[Netserk]

This year's Tour had 6 stages described as flat on wiki. 4 of them ended with a mass sprint. And a fifth with Laporte winning just beating the peloton.

This "spirit" always seem to include a very large amount of ITT/TTT.

The hilly category used for Calais and Arenberg (lol) weren't used for the old routes, so would go under "plain".

The spirit is endurance.

 

[OlavEH]

The hilly category used for Calais and Arenberg (lol) weren't used for the old routes, so would go under "plain".

The spirit is endurance.

But did that versions back in the 80s and 90s actually contain these type of stages (hilly finish), or was it just a breakway that won a (mostly) flat stage?

Endurance is still an element. Look at the Granon and Hautacam stages this year. They weren't that long, but the gaps were massive because of aggresive racing. And if a large amount of ITT is necessary is really a matter of perception. If one actually finds ITTs really entertaining and/or if one thinks that a "true" winner of a GT should be a very good time trialist.

 

[Netserk]

As I wrote, I'm not asking for a reanimation, a 1:1 copy. Tech, strengths and organisation have changed, so routes have to too.

I'd consider this as roughly as hilly a finish as Calais (taking the aforementioned factors into account):

And what is wrong about a breakaway winning a flat stage? Mads Pedersen's stage win was far better than Pogi's first two.

 

[OlavEH]

And what is wrong about a breakaway winning a flat stage? Mads Pedersen's stage win was far better than Pogi's first two.

No, but it was more likely that would happen in 1987 than in 2022. If almost all of those 12 "plain" stages in 1987 acutally were plain, a copy of them in 2022 woudn't end up in just 4 bunch sprints.

If you look only on the 7-8 most important stages (ITT and mountains) in 1987, they probably were tougher than in 2022. But the rest of the stages (12+) most likely were tougher and more entertaning in 2022.

 

[Netserk]

If almost all of those 12 "plain" stages in 1987 acutally were plain, a copy of them in 2022 woudn't end up in just 4 bunch sprints.

As I wrote, I'm not asking for a reanimation, a 1:1 copy. Tech, strengths and organisation have changed, so routes have to too.

 

[OlavEH]

Yeah, but do you want anything else than more ITT and longer mountain stages?

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, but do you want anything else than more ITT and longer mountain stages?

No rest days. Total length should always be over 4000 km. There should always be more ITT km than MTF km.