What is the perfect Grand Tour?

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  1. Teams limited to six riders
  2. Max 132 riders at the start to lessen race altering crashes in the first week
  3. Four or five hilly/mid-mountain stages with no long valleys between climbs
  4. Minimum 70 kms of ITT (flat and hilly, but not MTT)
  5. Six mountain stages: climbs should predominantly be in the 6-10% range. Anything steeper makes riders delay attacking and differences are small. More damage can be done on the repetition of longer less steep climbs with little valley riding between. The search for ever-steeper climbs is also a major factor in recent health issues created by the obsession with losing weight.
 
The team paid for bad rider selection. Pay for a better TT rider if you don't want your leader to lose that much time
Androni Giocattoli's team sent to the 2010 Giro was:

31 - Michele Scarponi
32 - Leonardo Bertagnolli
33 - Alessandro Bertolini
34 - Rubens Bertogliati
35 - Alberto Loddo
36 - Carlos José Ochoa
37 - Jackson Rodríguez
38 - José Serpa
39 - Cameron Wurf

Scarponi, Serpa, Wurf and Bertogliati are reasonable time trialists and were four of the five that remained at the end, pinned to Rodríguez' pace because they needed 5 riders to finish.

Looking at their 2010 roster it isn't an issue of rider selection within the team either; the only rider there I can say would have demonstrably improved the TTT unit would have been Luís Ángel Maté, who crashed out of La Flèche Wallonne and was unavailable to start the Giro.

At the time Savio's tendency was to hire riders coming off suspensions because they would come cheaper than usual for their level, because at that point there was an informal 'quarantine' of suspended riders at the ProConti level. In fact, that's why Scarponi was there in the first place. The joke about Savio's teams' jerseys being a billboard are because they are cycling's equivalent of a GoFundMe, securing small amounts from dozens of sponsors in lieu of being able to acquire a big money sponsor. His budget is famously low, so just spending a bit more money to get TT riders is not something that was on the cards. I know the likes of Jim Ochowicz and Oleg Tinkoff might have made it look different, but they are the exception and not the rule. This isn't football, if a team can't be competitive it's not a matter of demanding the millionaires in charge be a bit looser with the purse strings and buy bigger names, especially before the top level was as tightly locked off as it is now, thanks to the UCI closing the Cervélo/BMC loophole and preventing ProConti teams from really competing on a level in their targeted races as teams like Androni Giocattoli, Vacansoleil, Xacobeo and Acqua e Sapone used to.
 
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1. At least 5-6 stages in the high mountains:
And by high mountains, I mean mountains in plural. A stage with only lower/easier climbs before a MTF to for example Pratonevoso or Oropa would not be sufficient to be included in this category. The stages should also be of different type (MTF, descent finish, etc) and distributed throughout the GT (although this is more elaborated in point 4). In the Giro, I would for example rated the mountains 10 if we had 2 big MTFs like a double Passo Lanciano in the first week and Monte Bondone the last week, a descent finish from a big mountain like Monte Grappa and two of this stages with big climb/smaller climb combo like Finestre-Sestriere and Fedaia-Pordoi. Especially in the Giro there should be at least two of the last kind of stages for a perfect rating. This is the most important point, I would deduct more points here than any of the other if the mountain stages were too easy and/or too similar.

2. Maximum number of (pure) sprinter stages:
Flat or more or less flat stages which ends in a big mass sprint should be limited. No more than 5 would be preferable. You could have a couple of extra which could end a in a sprint with a reduced peloton, but these should also be limited. If you had 7 almost flat stages and 3-4 more that could end in a sprint with a reduced peloton, I would have a hard time rating the GT a perfect 10.

3. At least 2 medium mountain/hilly stages relevant for the GC:
High mountains are good, but medium mountains should neither be ignored. And by relevant for the GC I mean something more than a Muro de Guardigrele finish or a similar medium mountain finish as Super Besse. The Torino stage next year seems like a really good medium mountain stage. And a hilly stage similar to those Tirreno stages that has prompted a lot of actions in the last few years. There should also be more hilly/medium mountain stages, but as stated at least 2 potentially very relevant for the GC.

4. A "correct" sequence of different type of stages:
Neither of the stages mentioned above would be top notch if the sequence of the stages were really bad. And of course the route should not be not backloaded. At least one of the high mountain stages and one of the medium mountain/hilly stages should be in week 1. And two or three more of these in week two. One should also avoid packing the high mountain stages with 3 or more tough stages in a row, and where the very toughest stage is the last. And avoid having big mountain stages the day before an ITT.

5. Something "extra" or original:
For a perfect route, we also need something extra. It could be a sterrato stage like the stages to Montalcino. Or a monster 250 km medium mountain stage with a load of climbs and a strategically placed tough climb in a suitable distance from the stage finish. Or something brand new in the mountains. Doing Col de la Loze, descending past Courchevel and climbing fairly easy section to Pralognan de Vanoise would be much more original than just paving the last few km from Meribel to Col de la Loze. But this point is less significant. If all the other requirements listed were fulfilled, I woudn't withdraw much without this point.

6. A suitable amount of ITT
This is certainly more important for some in this forum. I would say a suitable amount, given all the other listed points here were fulfilled, is perhaps 70-80 km. But if rest of the route was perfect, I wouldn't withdraw much if the number of ITT were signicantly lower or higher. Maybe I would have rated 9,5 if it were 30 km of ITT or 120 km of ITT, but the rest was more or less flawless.
Just remembered this thread I started last year. And supplementing with some additional thoughts:

TTs:
Maximum two stages of ITTs/MTTs and no TTT.
Total length should be no more than 80-90 km.
MTTs should be more gradual climbs of 5-6 % and not steep ramps like Kronplatz or Lussari. Best MTT profile ever was the Briancon-Sestriere stage.

Mountain stages:
4 big/high mountain stages is absolutely minimum. 5 or 6 is preferable if not "replaced" by really big medium mountain/hilly stages.
2 high MTFs is sufficient (in the Giro). Like Grappa, Siusi, Bondone, Montecampione, etc. in the north, and perhaps one Appennine MTF (Montevergine is not enough!).
The rest of the big mountain stages should rather be descent finish, a short ramp at the end of a big mountain stage (like the fort in Briancon, Col Druscie, etc) or the typical big/small climb combo in Italy. In the Giro there should be at least 1 or 2 of the latter in each version.
And a couple of big/long medium mountain stages please! In the Giro one of these could be a murito stage.

Sequence:
The latest time for a ITT/MTT stage should be something like the first stage in the last week (stage 16).
The biggest mountain stages should not all come the last 5 days. Stage 14 or 15 and 17-19 would be suitable for at least two of the biggest mountain stages.
The first week (or typically 9 days) should contain more than a fairly easy MTF and a average tough medium mountain stage. At least one big mountain stage, one big medium mountain or big murito stage and one more stage relevant for the GC (ITT, sterrato/cobbles, a second big mountain/medium mountain stage).

The main problem with especially the Giro the later years is the sequence of the most important mountain stages and that there are too much focus on MTFs (at least after 2019). This leads to fewer stages with aggressive racing and shorter sections with aggressive racing.

In addition there is a problem that there only rarely is a stage other than ITTs that separates more than 10-15-20 seconds until stage 13-14 or something like that. It's almost unavoidable that the best racing happens within the last 8-9 days, but they could at least try to create stage that separates more before that.

In the Tour the main problem has been too easy and/or short mountain stages and far too heavy reliance on unipuerto finishes. And secondary that there are too few good medium mountain stages in Massif Central/Vosges/Jura. Maybe this year signified a change. Rumours for next year also seems promising.
 
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There was 69 km of ITT in the 2014 Giro, plus 21.7 km of TTT where Quintana lost 50'' to Uran. If the TTT was an ITT, I think Quintana would still have won the race.
But you said 80-90 km should be an absolute minimum. That would rather mean that most GTs had well over 100 km of ITT. That would massively favorize the top time trialists. Dumoulin barely beat Quintana with 68 km in 2017. And that included Tom's shitbreak. Add 30-40 km and Quintana would stand no chance. A good GT would give two riders like this a fairly equal chance to win.
 
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Depends on the rest of the route and the other GTs (which too would have more ITTing).
Of course. In some GTs I don't think it would mattered much if you had 40 km of ITT or 100 km. And a big amount of ITT is far from being a prerequisite for a good GT. The three best GTs in the GT elimination game for the 2010s had 60 km or less. The highest rated (Giro 2010) had only 36 km. Some versions would certainly have benifitted from more ITT, while other again again would be nothing better. Like the versions where Contador or Froome just would have been more superior with more ITT.

So it's difficult to know in advance, but as I've stated a couple of times I think a well designed GT would give an elite TTer/good climber a fairly equal chance to a elite climber/average TTer. For me that would be someone like Dumoulin in the first category and peak Quintana/Bernal in the second. You could also add a guy like Evans who weren't as good in TTs as Dumoulin or climbing as peak Quintana, but a bit more allround. If there were only 30-40 km of ITT it would favorize a peak Quintana. If it were 110-120 km, he would stand a chance against Dumoulin. So for me something in between those lengths would be balanced.

Unless you are a big fan of time trialing in itself, like @houtdffan obviously is, I really don't think an amount of 80-90 km is needed for a well designed GT and even more than that is beneficial.
 
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I'd rather have 4 ITTs than 2. 80-90 km is the bare minimum. Kronplatz was great.

There is no better way to finish the GC battle than with an ITT.
Meh, it automatically means there is a late TT, it usually stifles the final mountain stage (which in my perfect gt should come on stage 20) and I just kinda like parade stages. I really don't want the Tour to ever toy with the Champs Elysees finale.
 
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TTs are a great way to finish the GC tbh. Either the race was already decided with relatively small gaps beforehand because riders are similar level TT riders or you know which way the wind is blowing after the 2nd time check at the latest.
 
One that's different from the last.
Having all GTs follow the same pattern would get kinda boring.

Agree, I like variety (within reason), new climbs, TT heavy one year, climbing heavy the next year, etc. Within GT’s, avoid having too many similar stage profiles. All that being said, make the weekend stages as interesting as possible.

Flatten the points for the KOM so the GT leaders don’t “accidentally” win it and encourage more riders to go for the KOM.

The team competition based on time is pointless, Change it to a simple 4-2-1 points for each stage.

Take one of the wildcards away from the race organizers and make it performance based so any pro team can earn their away into a GT instead of being just based on what country a pro team is from.

And finally, have a prison stripe jersey for anyone that gets fined littering the previous day.
 
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80-90 is more than sufficient in almost all cased. We don't need GTs where there would be no chance for riders like Bernal, Quintana, Aru, Hindley, etc., to win.

hmm, while i almost 100% agree with your excellent longer post, i would argue that riders like Quintana, Aru and Hindley are/were actually not in the traditional mold of GT winners. they are very much a product of recent lack of TT, not only because they benefit from the lack of TT but the GT they contend in is often passed over by more traditional all-rounder GTers (Hindley is a prime example). Bernal is arguably on the cusp. But he definitely benefits from lack of ITT. One more fairly short TT in 2019 and an ill-prepared G repeats as TDF winner. One medium-length ITT in the middle of the 2021 Giro and perhaps real GTers would have decided to compete...

i actually put Bernal behind the likes of Van Impe, who could actually TT fairly well (3rd in the 1975 prologue and winner of a long ITT at the end that did have some climbing in it, but ahead of Thevenet and Merckx).
 
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hmm, while i almost 100% agree with your excellent longer post, i would argue that riders like Quintana, Aru and Hindley are/were actually not in the traditional mold of GT winners. they are very much a product of recent lack of TT, not only because they benefit from the lack of TT but the GT they contend in is often passed over by more traditional all-rounder GTers (Hindley is a prime example). Bernal is arguably on the cusp. But he definitely benefits from lack of ITT. One more fairly short TT in 2019 and an ill-prepared G repeats as TDF winner. One medium-length ITT in the middle of the 2021 Giro and perhaps real GTers would have decided to compete...
They aren't the first who wins GTs of more typical climbers. Simoni, Casagrande and Heras did it 20-25 years ago. I think there should be room for these too. GTs would be much more boring if it were so TT-packed that it heavily benifited riders in the mold of Wiggins, Dumoulin, etc. A guy like Quintana at his peak was probably a top 5 climber in the last 15 years. Then I think he is equally worthy as a GT winner as Wiggins and Dumoulin.

And who do you think will have showed up in the Giro 2021 if so were the case? The only possibly option I can see is Thomas and he is Bernal's team mate, so I can't see that would have helped much.
 
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Take one of the wildcards away from the race organizers and make it performance based so any pro team can earn their away into a GT instead of being just based on what country a pro team is from.

But, such a system already exist. The best ProTeam is automatically invited to all GTs, and - I think - all other WT stage races. While the best two ProTeams are - again, not 100% sure - automatically invited to all WT one day races. This year it was the best two and the best three, due to Qhubeka folding as late as they did.
How else do you think Alpecin - a Belgian team - got around to ride all the GTs for the last two years? And don't you think the Vuelta organisers would have preferred Caja Rural, rather than either Alpecin or Arkea?