What is the perfect Grand Tour?

[Netserk]

I want a route with more than 25 stages. I want to wear and tear riders apart. And I want the design of the stages to favour longer action. More endurance.

 

[OlavEH]

What if there were a couple of big mountain stages with a descent finish like Joux-Plane to Morzine and Bales to Bagneres de Luchon?

And no rest days and 4000+ km is NEVER going to happen. It's more likely they will start a Tour in the Pacific. Tours that are just an invite to use more clinic related stuff is totaly unrealistic.

 

[Netserk]

And no rest days and 4000+ km is NEVER going to happen. It's more likely they will start a Tour in the Pacific. Tours that are just an invite to use more clinic related stuff is totaly unrealistic.

That's such a false narrative. Was the early 00s Vueltas the cleanest?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Netserk you don’t dare to dream big.
I want 30 stages over 23 days. No rest day. Atleast 5000km. Longest stage should be atleast 472 km to set a new record for longest stage.
A TTT of 100km is needed. An ITT atleast 80 km long. Perhaps an MTT over Galibier.
We need a queen stage with atleast 7000 meters of climbing.
Teams down to 7 riders, get in more teams.

 

[OlavEH]

That's such a false narrative. Was the early 00s Vueltas the cleanest?

As you said:

"I want to wear and tear riders apart".

You are immensely naive if you don't think there would be more incenctive to use iilegal stuff to speed up recovery if the routes were like this.

 

[Netserk]

As you said:

"I want to wear and tear riders apart".

You are immensely naive if you don't think there would be more incenctive to use iilegal stuff to speed up recovery if the routes were like this.

That reductive argument would also have you hold that marathon runners are incentivised to use "illegal stuff" compared to track sprinters because of the distance (more analogously, are ultra runners dirtier than marathon runners, are the incentives really that different?). Sure, the incentives would change, but as for "illegal stuff" it's a question of composition, not magnitude.

 

[OlavEH]

That reductive argument would also have you hold that marathon runners are incentivised to use "illegal stuff" compared to track sprinters because of the distance (more analogously, are ultra runners dirtier than marathon runners, are the incentives really that different?). Sure, the incentives would change, but as for "illegal stuff" it's a question of composition, not magnitude.

The result if your type of route were implemented would probably be just more soft pedaling on bigger parts of the route, not better and more entertaining racing.

 

[Netserk]

The result if your type of route were implemented would probably be just more soft pedaling on bigger parts of the route, not better and more entertaining racing.

So breakaways would be more likely to succeed on flat stages then? Slower, more tactical stages would also allow less strong riders to win, making it easier for clean riders to succeed?

 

[OlavEH]

So breakaways would be more likely to succeed on flat stages then? Slower, more tactical stages would also allow less strong riders to win, making it easier for clean riders to succeed?

If you combined no rest days with over 4000 km in total and assume no doping (which I think is incredibly naive), there would probably would be a bigger chance for a breakway to succeed on a flat stage. But I don't see why that is so good in itself. There is absolutely no good arguments why 4000km, no rest days, more ITT and longer mountain stages automatically is better than 3300 km on 21 days with a very good mix of high mountain stages, medium mountain stages, hilly stages, maybe a sterrato or cobble stage and only a medlum amount of ITT.

 

[yaco]

But did that versions back in the 80s and 90s actually contain these type of stages (hilly finish), or was it just a breakway that won a (mostly) flat stage?

Endurance is still an element. Look at the Granon and Hautacam stages this year. They weren't that long, but the gaps were massive because of aggresive racing. And if a large amount of ITT is necessary is really a matter of perception. If one actually finds ITTs really entertaining and/or if one thinks that a "true" winner of a GT should be a very good time trialist.

Watch the tours from the 80's to the mid 2000's - It staggering how may times a small group slipped in the last 10 or 15kms or a solo rider got away in the last 2 or 3kms.

 

[OlavEH]

Watch the tours from the 80's to the mid 2000's - It staggering how may times a small group slipped in the last 10 or 15kms or a solo rider got away in the last 2 or 3kms.

Okay. And this was due to the sprinter's teams being worse at controlling the race than they have been in the last 15-20 years?

 

[RedheadDane]

Netserk you don’t dare to dream big.
I want 30 stages over 23 days. No rest day. Atleast 5000km. Longest stage should be atleast 472 km to set a new record for longest stage.
A TTT of 100km is needed. An ITT atleast 80 km long. Perhaps an MTT over Galibier.
We need a queen stage with atleast 7000 meters of climbing.
Teams down to 7 riders, get in more teams.

Don't do drugs.

 

[saunaking]

3. At least 2 medium mountain/hilly stages relevant for the GC:
High mountains are good, but medium mountains should neither be ignored. And by relevant for the GC I mean something more than a Muro de Guardigrele finish or a similar medium mountain finish as Super Besse. The Torino stage next year seems like a really good medium mountain stage. And a hilly stage similar to those Tirreno stages that has prompted a lot of actions in the last few years. There should also be more hilly/medium mountain stages, but as stated at least 2 potentially very relevant for the GC.

Yes - more of this especially.
Some of the most entertaining and dramatic stages recently were the Giro stage that Simon Yates won and last years tour stage that was like 230km long or something and i think Mohoric won with WVA and MVDP also in that move

 

[yaco]

Okay. And this was due to the sprinter's teams being worse at controlling the race than they have been in the last 15-20 years?

Absolutely true - Just pointing out that in the last 40 or 50 years the TDF has always had a fair proportion of sprint stages - The only difference is that sprinting has become more specialised in the last 30 years.

 

[Extinction]

I think there should be two TTs, one medium (30 ks) and one long in a GT (50ks), 5 high mountain stages, with 3 middle mountain stages, a murito stage, 7 technically demanding stages (in France one over the pavé, in Italy a Strade-Bianchesque one), with 4 for the sprinters.

 

[Red Rick]

As you said:

"I want to wear and tear riders apart".

You are immensely naive if you don't think there would be more incenctive to use iilegal stuff to speed up recovery if the routes were like this.

Hmm. Seems there is no incentive for anyone to use clinical methods in the 100m.

 

[Tonton]

Netserk you don’t dare to dream big.
I want 30 stages over 23 days. No rest day. Atleast 5000km. Longest stage should be atleast 472 km to set a new record for longest stage.
A TTT of 100km is needed. An ITT atleast 80 km long. Perhaps an MTT over Galibier.
We need a queen stage with atleast 7000 meters of climbing.
Teams down to 7 riders, get in more teams.

Tadej Pogacar will win this bike race. Mark my words...