What is the rule with TDF riders and pain killers?

[deviant]

Perhaps the real problem is the length and duration of stage races.
If the TdF wasn't so physically demanding there would be less of a need for PEDs in my opinion.

With regard to Tramadol, this is now getting silly.
It's a pain relief med, what's next in the cross hairs; aspirin, ibuprofen etc etc....

With regard to Barry's claims of the euphoria like feeling from its effect on dopamine and serotonin areas, this can be offset by the comedown and godawful withdrawal when coming off these meds.

I was prescribed it for around 3 months when I had a rotator cuff injury and my performance on the bike stayed the same and the time tapering down the Tramadol ready to stop was horrible.

If this is the state of doping in modern cycling at the moment, the cutting edge so to speak then it's a good sign that things are not as bad as they once were because analgesics like Tramadol are small change compared to steroids, EPO, blood bags etc...

 

[Netserk]

Perhaps the real problem is the length and duration of stage races.
If the TdF wasn't so physically demanding there would be less of a need for PEDs in my opinion.

Do you think the 100m sprint is any cleaner than cycling?

 

[Granville57]

Perhaps the real problem is the length and duration of stage races.
If the TdF wasn't so physically demanding there would be less of a need for PEDs in my opinion.

Perhaps they should shorten all races to only 100 meters. That would clean things up.

[Edit]
Too slow on the draw this time. Netserk beat me to it while I was searching for a pic.

 

[kingjr]

Do you think the 100m sprint is any cleaner than cycling?

I think the point deviant is making is that you dont need drugs in the 100m just to "survive". Because that could push athletes into using PED's even if it's not in their nature to cheat to win.

100m is an individual sport. There is little point to it if you have no chance of winning. In cycling you can be a useful rider even if you're not a winner.

 

[hrotha]

People rode for over 400 km on unpaved roads on bikes with a single gear and with alcohol as their most effective PED. No, I don't think cycling is inherently "too hard" to be done without PEDs, unless of course everyone's using.

 

[roundabout]

Are helpers taking PED's just to "survive" or to increase their usefulness?

Being able to help your leader every day counts for a lot when it comes to getting the next paycheck.

 

[Granville57]

I think the point deviant is making is that you dont need drugs in the 100m just to "survive".

But "surviving" could just as easily be defined as "making it to the final round." And in order to do that, doping has proven to be very effective.

 

[kingjr]

Are helpers taking PED's just to "survive" or to increase their usefulness?

Being able to help your leader every day counts for a lot when it comes to getting the next paycheck.

Well if you don't "survive" you aren't very useful i'd say.

 

[Granville57]

In cycling you can be a useful rider even if you're not a winner.

Again though, in pro cycling stage races (because that was the topic raised) being "useful" means being in the very top percentile of cyclists in the world—otherwise you won't even get there.

PEDs have been proven very effective at "getting there."

 

[roundabout]

Well if you don't "survive" you aren't very useful i'd say.

You are probably not getting what I wrote.

I am pretty sure that a rider can get through a Tour within the time limit without taking anything. How much help he will be to a leader in situations that matter is another question.

Justifying taking PED's as "survival" seems like an excuse for breaking (or bending) the rules.

 

[BroDeal]

In the Sky thread I mentioned how Steve Tilford had a post about finisher bottles.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/14/racing-on-opiates/

It explains why Sky gives its riders illegal bottle hand-ups at the end of races.

 

[Granville57]

At the risk of talking in circles, or agreeing while disagreeing about agreeing (or something like that), allow me to clarify my point.

Getting to the final round of the shortest sporting event, or withstanding the rigors of the longest, will, ultimately, be reduced the best performing athletes in the world at whatever that discipline is.

PEDs have been, and will continue to be, present in both. Being "the best" often involves cheating. Sports just happen to have (some) rules against it.

 

[Granville57]

In the Sky thread I mentioned how Steve Tilford had a post about finisher bottles.

What was interesting about that Phinney interview when it came out was that, as far I remember, the peloton was silent on the matter. I don't recall other riders shouting, "Yeah, and we're damn sick of all these finishing bottles!." Nor do I recall anyone else stepping up and saying, "It's no big deal. We use them all the time and they're legal. Everyone uses them except that priss Taylor Phinney and one or two of his soft friends." (Or something like that)

Nope. Just a general silence about the issue in the wake of that article. I could be wrong of course. If so, I eagerly await an assault of twitter links.

It explains why Sky gives its riders illegal bottle hand-ups at the end of races.

It does put the Porte-Pass in a different light.

 

[mewmewmew13]

For the moment Phinney is young and recovers quickly and relatively pain-free for the most part.
I wonder if his opinion of a couple tylenols or similar will sound better when he gets a few years on…

and I do NOT remember hearing any responses from the rest of the peloton..

silence..

 

[kingjr]

You are probably not getting what I wrote.

I am pretty sure that a rider can get through a Tour within the time limit without taking anything. How much help he will be to a leader in situations that matter is another question.

Justifying taking PED's as "survival" seems like an excuse for breaking (or bending) the rules.

Yes, a rider can get through, but the question raised was how high the cost is, physically and mentally.

I doubt you would find a 100m runner who says he took PED's because he didn't want to feel like he got hit by a truck after a race anymore. Everyone will say they toko them to cross the line, to proceed to the next round etc. etc.

If the percentage of cheaters in cycling, who cheat because of the reasons mentioned above could be reduced by making the race less demanding, and if some expert on exercise physiology thinks that decreasing the length of the races could be a way to go, then why not. I have my doubts about that as much as you do, but i'm no expert.
Anyway, I don't care much for the length of a bike race. I care more about who is riding.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Yes, a rider can get through, but the question raised was how high the cost is, physically and mentally.

I doubt you would find a 100m runner who says he took PED's because he didn't want to feel like he got hit by a truck after a race anymore. Everyone will say they toko them to cross the line, to proceed to the next round etc. etc.

If the percentage of cheaters in cycling, who cheat because of the reasons mentioned above could be reduced by making the race less demanding, and if some expert on exercise physiology thinks that decreasing the length of the races could be a way to go, then why not. I have my doubts about that as much as you do, but i'm no expert.
Anyway, I don't care much for the length of a bike race. I care more about who is riding.

But maybe because he didn't want to feel like he got by a truck after his @ss-kicking gym/plyo workout?

PEDs are not taken solely for races. They're taken mostly for training/recovery.

 

[Granville57]

I doubt you would find a 100m runner who says he took PED's because he didn't want to feel like he got hit by a truck after a race anymore.

But you could easily find a fattie masters doper who say's (at least to himself) "I take PEDs so that I can be the coolest MFer looking back at me in my bathroom mirror."

The duration of races will do little to discourage doping. Considering that genetic differences between riders become more significant during Grand Tours, it could be easily argued that shortening races would do more to "level the playing field" which could then, in turn, encourage even more doping in order to rise above the others.

 

[Granville57]

Back to the tramadol discussion...

This might require closer scrutiny. Some interesting tidbits from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol

It has been suggested that tramadol could be effective for alleviating symptoms of depression, anxiety, and phobias

Rare adverse effects include:
-Speech disorders

and
Hallucinations

 

[Granville57]

More notably...

In 2013, researchers discovered that tramadol is also produced naturally in relatively high concentrations in the roots of the African pin cushion tree.

 

[deviant]

With my own experience of Tramadol, if i was a day off work and i woke up, went downstairs to the kitchen to make a cup of tea and took 2 x 50mg Tramadol (standard dose) on an empty stomach, then within 20 minutes i felt like doing f**k all with my day....it was like being stoned, i'm still struggling to see just how much of a PED this stuff really is....maybe i should go back to my Doc for another script?!

Seriously though if guys these days are using analgesics to get through horrible training sessions or to finish the end of a 200km mountain stage then i think that has to be better than the days of transfusions or blood thickening EPO shots.

I do think this has to be tempered with some common sense, do you make a rider start a stage with a headache because Tylenol will relieve it and allow him to perform better than when he had the headache?...is that not performance enhancing?

I'm all for clean sport but some of the discussion around meds like Tramadol and Telmisartan at the moment border on hysteria. We know in the past riders ended up in hospital from EPO and transfusion complications....the worst something like Telmisartan will do is lower their blood pressure!....if it goes too low they'll faint and fall off the bike.

I am far more concerned about the organ enlargement associated with HGH, the liver tumours associated with steroids, the instant death associated with trying insulin as a PED, the blood clots associated with transfusions, the strain on the heart from EPO thickened blood, the myocardium damage from stimulants etc etc.

The bread and water approach is very noble but its just inhumane to hold off on the pain meds when someone needs it, like Thomas who wanted to continue riding with a crack in his pelvis.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

With my own experience of Tramadol, if i was a day off work and i woke up, went downstairs to the kitchen to make a cup of tea and took 2 x 50mg Tramadol (standard dose) on an empty stomach, then within 20 minutes i felt like doing f**k all with my day....it was like being stoned, i'm still struggling to see just how much of a PED this stuff really is....maybe i should go back to my Doc for another script?!

Seriously though if guys these days are using analgesics to get through horrible training sessions or to finish the end of a 200km mountain stage then i think that has to be better than the days of transfusions or blood thickening EPO shots.

I do think this has to be tempered with some common sense, do you make a rider start a stage with a headache because Tylenol will relieve it and allow him to perform better than when he had the headache?...is that not performance enhancing?

I'm all for clean sport but some of the discussion around meds like Tramadol and Telmisartan at the moment border on hysteria. We know in the past riders ended up in hospital from EPO and transfusion complications....the worst something like Telmisartan will do is lower their blood pressure!....if it goes too low they'll faint and fall off the bike.

I am far more concerned about the organ enlargement associated with HGH, the liver tumours associated with steroids, the instant death associated with trying insulin as a PED, the blood clots associated with transfusions, the strain on the heart from EPO thickened blood, the myocardium damage from stimulants etc etc.

The bread and water approach is very noble but its just inhumane to hold off on the pain meds when someone needs it, like Thomas who wanted to continue riding with a crack in his pelvis.

Here we go. Could have saved you lots of words.

 

[Catwhoorg]

The bread and water approach is very noble but its just inhumane to hold off on the pain meds when someone needs it, like Thomas who wanted to continue riding with a crack in his pelvis.

I can simultaneously admire Thomas for doing it, and also think it was pretty durn stupid, and if he needed tramadol to do it, the Docs should have pulled him IMHO.
Mild analgesics is one thing, but this is too far and should be on the banned list.

 

[martinvickers]

I can simultaneously admire Thomas for doing it, and also think it was pretty durn stupid, and if he needed tramadol to do it, the Docs should have pulled him IMHO.
Mild analgesics is one thing, but this is too far and should be on the banned list.

This, 100%. My original take on the article was that the recipient was probably Thomas, and that Farrell was not entirely happy with it. Seen nothing to change that view.

 

[simo1733]

Back to the tramadol discussion...

This might require closer scrutiny. Some interesting tidbits from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol

Rare adverse effects include:
-Speech disorders

and
Hallucinations

Looks like Wiggo is in the clear based on his Giro performance.

 

[delilahdora]

I guess the issue with things like Tramadol is not that it's being used, but how it's being used. If we're using Thomas as the example, then him being dosed up on painkillers to get through each stage (whilst totally questionable) is one thing, the idea of 'finish bottles' is something else entirely.
Having used Tramadol myself as a painkiller - it's bloody effective. It's also a bit like being hit over the head with a hammer which is what worries me. How scary it must be to go into a bunch sprint when half the guys at the pointy end are off their faces....