What is 'trolling' here?

[Armchair Cyclist]

I was trying to illustrate the difference in standards for commenting on people inside the forum, outside this forum and for direct communication between members of this forum. I may have gotten carried away...

But in any case, the pointI was trying to make is that standards (strict or lenient) should be the same for all of the above mentioned groups in my opinion. It just doesn't make sense to be able to talk dirty about people just becayse they are not members of this forum.

Rules that are at the top of the boards lay down non-negotiables about how we deal with forum members. How we deal with non-forum members is something I'd like to see us negotiate among ourselves.

 

[scribers]

This thread is exactly about how we deal with one another. It’s literally a trolling conversation. And to what acceptable degree is rider characterizations in this environment

 

[E_F_]

This thread is exactly about how we deal with one another. It’s literally a trolling conversation.

Obviously @Armchair Cyclist chose to use this thread for a different conversation concerning derogatory remarks regarding riders.

 

[Froome]

@Armchair Cyclist there is no problem in saying something like "slovenian pozzato" or "tik tok armstrong" right? Since there is no problem calling a rider coward, who has no balls.

 

[scribers]

What is the history of tik tok armstrong? It doesn't seem flattering, and possibly clinic related (if even inseparable)

 

[Red Rick]

What is the history of tik tok armstrong? It doesn't seem flattering, and possibly clinic related (if even inseparable)

Some genius made a funny about Pogacar being a bully with an unbelievable PR machine behind him

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

@Armchair Cyclist there is no problem in saying something like "slovenian pozzato" or "tik tok armstrong" right? Since there is no problem calling a rider coward, who has no balls.

What is the history of tik tok armstrong? It doesn't seem flattering, and possibly clinic related (if even inseparable)

Personally I don't like "slovenian pozzato" and its kind, (as far as I am concerned, as fans of cycling we should be grateful to those who dedicate themselves to the sport and thereby give us entertainment, and that we owe them enough respect to avoid such terms) but consensus here was that that type of message should be allowed.

I am also unclear as to the origin of "tik tok Armstrong". A search on the site reveals that it has been used once before today, by @Froome. Whether that was novel or picked up elsewhere I don't know, but if it were used outside the clinic I would certainly be looking at it very closely.

As to the "coward who has no balls", frankly I find it very disingenuous, @Froome, that you come here saying "there is no problem" with that as I invited you specifically to come here to raise your objection to that term precisely to see if a consensus could be built against that level of discourse. I have not tried to hide that I very much hope a strong community opinion can be established against it, and you have totally misrepresented me in your comment.

 

[Netserk]

Oldest undeleted usage here is from the Giro last year:

He's jsut TikTok Armstrong.

First TikTok name, I think:

Tom TikTok still looking good though.

 

[Salvarani]

Damn, RR caught in 4K.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Damn, RR caught in 4K.

To be fair, they did own up to it. Though I thought it had been used more frequently compared to what Netserk found.

 

[Netserk]

To be fair, they did own up to it. Though I thought it had been used more frequently compared to what Netserk found.

I can't search deleted posts.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I can't search deleted posts.

Neither can I, but I don't think it is something I have habitually deleted (or even noticed much). Apologies for misattributing first use (I may have searched Tik Tok with a space)

 

[Netserk]

I know that I used the term more than once last year, but it won't show up on a search.

 

[SHAD0W93]

At a minimum I think Armstrong added to the end should be in the clinic. Clinic aside, I view it as calling someone a narcissist, fraud, and bully due to that being the main perception of Armstrong’s character. Now on the other hand Pogacar is prevalent on social media and the TikTok aspect most definitely came from Pog posting his pool day during the 2023 Tour on social media including TikTok. Then in the broader sense people who post on TikTok are called Tiktokers.

This is the TikTok search that came up for me barring today’s posts, do with it what you will.

That takes not that much energy and Pogacar just trained himself to farm the easy content consistently.

He's jsut TikTok Armstrong.

The Cult of Personality of TikTok Armstrong.

Yay

I'm talking mainly about public perception.

Frankly we don't really know enough to say much about the level of corruption that is ongoing, and if that is at levels equivalent to Armstrong or worse.

Similarly, we don't really know if journalists being so uncritical of Pogacar is a passive or active process - i.e. there's active pressure being applied to not ask the wrong questions - or if journo's just really only go where the clicks and views go so that "sure Pogacar being 4 minutes faster than Pantani" is an emergent narrative simply only existing because fans are huffing the Kool-Aid of the TikTok Armstrong cult already.

For the rest, small riders are on unsophisticated doping that's easier to catch. And popular athletes getting away with more *** has been well described in scientific literature.

TikTok Armstrong. He is arrogant and a sneak. He knows nobody can touch him with the new programm of UAE.

I hope he ends like Ricardo Ricco.

In reply to a deleted post.

How about Tik tok Ricardo Ricco?

In reply to a deleted post.

He makes Armstrong look like Bassons

I assume the "TikTok A*******g" moniker is then reserved for the clinic?

 

[Red Rick]

If we cannot mention Armstrong, can we promote Lance to just being Cycling Voldemort? 7 TdFs vs 7 horcruxes, and they got ended in 2011/2012

 

[SHAD0W93]

If we cannot mention Armstrong, can we promote Lance to just being Cycling Voldemort? 7 TdFs vs 7 horcruxes, and they got ended in 2011/2012

Armstrong was already called that before it died down then it was mentioned in jest for the Vingemort complaints.

 

[RedheadDane]

Personally I don't like "slovenian pozzato" and its kind, (as far as I am concerned, as fans of cycling we should be grateful to those who dedicate themselves to the sport and thereby give us entertainment, and that we owe them enough respect to avoid such terms) but consensus here was that that type of message should be allowed.

I am very happy to hear that I would indeed be allowed to refer to Salby as "The Danish Mareczko".
Though, I don't think he has quite earned that title yet; you need a bit more than just two wins in Asian races for that...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If we cannot mention Armstrong, can we promote Lance to just being Cycling Voldemort? 7 TdFs vs 7 horcruxes, and they got ended in 2011/2012

Armstrong called himself the Voldemort of cycling a long time ago. Very fitting nickname.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

At a minimum I think Armstrong added to the end should be in the clinic. Clinic aside, I view it as calling someone a narcissist, fraud, and bully due to that being the main perception of Armstrong’s character. Now on the other hand Pogacar is prevalent on social media and the TikTok aspect most definitely came from Pog posting his pool day during the 2023 Tour on social media including TikTok. Then in the broader sense people who post on TikTok are called Tiktokers.

This is the TikTok search that came up for me barring today’s posts, do with it what you will.









In reply to a deleted post.


In reply to a deleted post.

Disagree that every comparison to Armstrong belongs in the clinic, he is far too relevant outside of clinic issues for every comparison to automatically imply said clinic issues. If we were calling someone the male Van den Driessche, it would be different.

On another note, how the *** was 'I hope he ends like Ricardo Ricco' not even removed? That is very blatantly wishing a medical emergency on a rider (the use of the word 'ends' leaves no other interpretation), which in my view is permaban worthy. Do people just not report anything in the clinic?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

On another note, how the *** was 'I hope he ends like Ricardo Ricco' not even removed? That is very blatantly wishing a medical emergency on a rider (the use of the word 'ends' leaves no other interpretation), which in my view is permaban worthy. Do people just not report anything in the clinic?

I'll assume you have just come across it in searching "TikTok Armstrong" very recently, otherwise you are as culpable as anyone else for it not being brought to my attention.

I don't think it would have stopped me in that case, but you yourself raised the problem I would have faced:

If we are going to delete comments about riders that might possibly be interpreted as demeaning, then by definition the moderation itself is not following the forum rule on Most Reasonable Interpretation. I think that that would be problematic to say the least.

"But I just meant that I hope he gets a ban that is long enough to end his career, and that he ends up selling ice-cream (or something else entirely outside the world of sport)"

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I'll assume you have just come across it in searching "TikTok Armstrong" very recently, otherwise you are as culpable as anyone else for it not being brought to my attention.

I rarely read the clinic.

I don't think it would have stopped me in that case, but you yourself raised the problem I would have faced:

Something can be beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise there would be no point in having a moderator other than deleting spam.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Something can be beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise there would be no point in having a moderator other than deleting spam.

And as I said, I would have acted in that case had I been aware of it.

But if you are going to make that point, you really need to withdraw this argument:

If we are going to delete comments about riders that might possibly be interpreted as demeaning, then by definition the moderation itself is not following the forum rule on Most Reasonable Interpretation. I think that that would be problematic to say the least.
... their position is that the rule on Most Reasonable Interpretation should only apply when it suits them. Or rather: that it should apply only to us and not to them.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

And as I said, I would have acted in that case had I been aware of it.

But if you are going to make that point, you really need to withdraw this argument:

I disagree. In the ends up like Ricco example, only one interpretation is reasonable (in my view) and therefore moderator action is desirable. In the TikTok Armstrong example, multiple interpretations are reasonable and therefore moderator action is (unless the context precludes certain interpretations) not desirable. It also doesn't help that the sole reasonable interpretation of the Ricco comment is far worse than any interpretation of the Armstrong one in this case, but that's not really my point here.

Of course there's a whole lot of grey area when it comes to what counts as a reasonable interpretation, but I would argue that that's inherent to most rules on speech.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I disagree. In the ends up like Ricco example, only one interpretation is reasonable (in my view) and therefore moderator action is desirable. In the TikTok Armstrong example, multiple interpretations are reasonable and therefore moderator action is (unless the context precludes certain interpretations) not desirable. It also doesn't help that the sole reasonable interpretation of the Ricco comment is far worse than any interpretation of the Armstrong one in this case, but that's not really my point here.

Of course there's a whole lot of grey area when it comes to what counts as a reasonable interpretation, but I would argue that that's inherent to most rules on speech.

"Ends up like" does not necessarily mean "takes the same journey". Ricco has ended up (last I heard of him) as something of a pariah and laughing stock, and working outside of sport and without apparent glamour or riches; there is a plausible deniability based on this being what was meant.

But you highlight a case in which, even if there were only one possible interpretation, the rule of Most Respectful Interpretation (you have been mis-citing it as "most reasonable") does not mean "anything goes". And that is why I do not believe that calling someone an arsehole, a disgusting rat, a coward without balls, or wishing serious illness upon them, should be tolerable and wanted to sound out opinion on that. I'd like to get back to that conversation.

 

[Netserk]

I disagree. In the ends up like Ricco example, only one interpretation is reasonable (in my view) and therefore moderator action is desirable. In the TikTok Armstrong example, multiple interpretations are reasonable and therefore moderator action is (unless the context precludes certain interpretations) not desirable. It also doesn't help that the sole reasonable interpretation of the Ricco comment is far worse than any interpretation of the Armstrong one in this case, but that's not really my point here.

Of course there's a whole lot of grey area when it comes to what counts as a reasonable interpretation, but I would argue that that's inherent to most rules on speech.

I do not think that wishing physical harm is the only reasonable interpretation.

The comment is in response to:

The biggest threat for him is hubris, for him as well as other UAE riders on the same program.
He's riding like he's untouchable. He could also wait until the final climb, but he needs to show off. That can start to work against you.
Currently, nobody asks questions, but that can change quickly.
Some of his competitors will start to hate him as well.

That all sounds like a characterisation of Riccò. Arrogant, hubristic, hated. That behaviour led to Riccò being punished informally in addition to his formal punishment when he was caught.

Ending up as persona non grata was my first thought, not a medical emergency from having to dope on your own (also unclear why that would ever be the case for Pogi).