What the hell just happened ?

[Dr. Maserati]

Can they use that information? That seems to me like finding cookies missing from the jar and crumbs on your kid...tell him he's gonna be punished tomorrow. Then when the kid goes poop you find traces of Oreo's, so you add that in and send him to the corner for twice as long.
What I'm asking is will there be potential for more severe punishment because of the "new" information?
Jeff

Hmmm....
Maybe he wont retain his 4th place in the Plano swim U12 event.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Can they use that information? That seems to me like finding cookies missing from the jar and crumbs on your kid...tell him he's gonna be punished tomorrow. Then when the kid goes poop you find traces of Oreo's, so you add that in and send him to the corner for twice as long.
What I'm asking is will there be potential for more severe punishment because of the "new" information?
Jeff

I really like that analogy. I don't see a reason though, that any evidence gathered before the absolute date, arbitration or reasoned decision, isn't useable.

 

[rata de sentina]

Trolling par excellance, sir. Absolutely brilliant stuff.

You're far too kind even if it is sarcasm, you'd be better off letting it wither on the vine. Also I have the trash on ignore and I'd prefer not to see the stench appearing as quoted in other's posts.
Cheers

 

[thehog]

interesting, thehog...to the bolded, I'm curious if you've heard whisperings to this effect or if you are purely speculating?

(to you others, no jokes about hoggie's posting credibility are needed - I'm aware of his record, pro and con )

It's just makes sense that's all. They don't want a UCI hatchet job done on the report. Best to get it validated before they hand it on.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Just wow, hard to believe a Lance fanboy has the stones to come here and regurgitate this stuff at this point. Gree you would be a lot better off if you would stick to Facebook and ESPN.com comments sections and other places like that where "witch hunt" and "500 tests" and all the other crap are still embraced. Around here you just come off as very gullible.

 

[Race Radio]

----

You need to stop lying, it makes you look silly

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Two days ago Tygart tells us all thru L'Equipe that USADA is going to be sending the "reasoned decision" over to the UCI by the end of this month. Two days later he now tells us that it's gonna be more than two more weeks. What the hell just happened in the last two days ? Travis - We luv ya ma man but jeeeeeez.

It's probably just a formality that either Tygart did not inform L'Equipe of, or L'Equipe who reported it did not understand. Any US government agency must have documents approved for release when the documents are intended for distribution to outside organizations. That often takes some time. Is several more weeks a reasonable extension? Probably, given review and approval to release cannot be done by just anyone. And if the responsible party for granting and giving written (signed) approval has other higher priority matters or is not immediately available, then 2 extra weeks is not unreasonable.

 

[gree0232]

You're far too kind even if it is sarcasm, you'd be better off letting it wither on the vine. Also I have the trash on ignore and I'd prefer not to see the stench appearing as quoted in other's posts.
Cheers

Just added one to my list as well. Nice. Civilized discussion at its finest.

And its Lance that's the jerk?

 

[Bannockburn]

There's no issue here. A few weeks in either direction might seem like a major development to those of us interested enough to frequent here, but in the grand scheme it's nothing. Things happen for reasons and it will arrive soon enough...and arrive it shall...

 

[gree0232]

Just wow, hard to believe a Lance fanboy has the stones to come here and regurgitate this stuff at this point. Gree you would be a lot better off if you would stick to Facebook and ESPN.com comments sections and other places like that where "witch hunt" and "500 tests" and all the other crap are still embraced. Around here you just come off as very gullible.

Well, thanks for that.

As I have said, it would be nice to see the evidence. Espcially as, when this first broke, and the evidence was asked ... it was a few days ... then weeks ... and yet the evidence was in the ultimatum stage?

And I think the fan boys should prepare one way or the other. There is going to be a rebuttal. Its not a matter of whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not.

That is how legal systems work. Two sides make a case and the side that is stronger BASED ON THE EVIDENCE wins.

Until the evidence is released, we have nothing to go on.

Now, whether you like it or not, after all the public grand standing, the case has to be absolutely air tight. It HAS to be 30 times worse than what we have heard before.

And consider a few other issues:

#1 - is this is formal system that we are going to use to police sport? Random agencies with holding evidence until AFTER judgement? Exceeding the statute of limitation to go after you even after they have retired?

#2 - My biggest concern is exactly the rumor and innuendo that surround this case ... or Wiggins 'cadence' or Cancellera's mechanical doping. There has to be a system in place that allows evidence, and not rumors, to be the determiner of guilt.

Leaks from the UCI to embarass WADA and the opposite, etc. are not helping anything. And as we see right here in this thread, asking for evidence - withholding judgement until the evidence is released .... is, horrible?

Invites ridicule and insults?

So please bear in mind a few points. One, several people are already convinced of something without seeing the evidence. Two, we have tons of rumors, few facts regarding this case. Three, no matter what is released, in can, will, and should be rebutted.

When we get ourselves into a situation where not only is guilt predetermined, but animosity is laced with any rebuttal as a Vrijman slander? That is not an evidenced based look. That is an obsession.

A reminder, I don;t give a rip whether Lance doped or not. I do care that we use a system that established guilt in an impartial manner. Because what happens here will effect more than Lance - and the silence from the peloton should tell us something.

 

[the big ring]

A reminder, I don;t give a rip whether Lance doped or not. I do care that we use a system that established guilt in an impartial manner. Because what happens here will effect more than Lance - and the silence from the peloton should tell us something.

It tells use Omerta is alive and well on planet Dope.

 

[131313]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, but I've been lurking a long time. I really hate Lance, and I KNOW he doped, but this delay really bothers me. I mean, shouldn't USADA really have their stuff together? I mean, sure, Armstrong's been cheating the system for 15+ years, the whole time paying off the governing body of the sport, buying USAC and even attempting to buy the TDF, all while engaged in a multimillion-dollar PR blitz to discredit and an all who speak against him...but so what! We really shouldn't have to wait an extra 2 weeks for an organization with a staff of fewer than 10 people to provide the details we need. I mean, what sort of process is this! look, I know Lance (who I KNOW doped) had a chance to confront the evidence in arbitration, but come on, athletes NEVER win there (look at all the athletes who've been railroaded by them, Landis, Hamilton, Jones, etc...USADA ALWAYS WINS! HOW IS THAT FAIR).

Really, I HATE Lance, but this is about fairness. How is it fair, just because Armstrong and Co. threatened witnesses, lobbied congress to stop the process, sued USADA at every turn to avoid confronting the "evidence", hired PI's to follow USADA employees, and hired half of K-Street to beat the rap...why do they think they can delay a couple of weeks sending this stuff to the UCI. This just really seems questionable to me...

 

[the big ring]

I hear you, 131313. It's damn #unconstitutional. Abraham Lincoln is rolling in his grave.

 

[Bosco10]

Just hope it's not dragged out for 500, maybe even 600 days.

 

[JPM London]

... What's happening is more ducks are joining the conga line...

MUST. GET. IMAGE. OUT. OF. HEAD...

Still laughing - dunno why, but am

 

[the big ring]

Just hope it's not dragged out for 500, maybe even 600 days.

or 28 million days.

 

[RichWalk]

Is Travis writing a book?

 

[noddy69]

Well, thanks for that.

As I have said, it would be nice to see the evidence. Espcially as, when this first broke, and the evidence was asked ... it was a few days ... then weeks ... and yet the evidence was in the ultimatum stage?

And I think the fan boys should prepare one way or the other. There is going to be a rebuttal. Its not a matter of whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not.

That is how legal systems work. Two sides make a case and the side that is stronger BASED ON THE EVIDENCE wins.

Until the evidence is released, we have nothing to go on.

Now, whether you like it or not, after all the public grand standing, the case has to be absolutely air tight. It HAS to be 30 times worse than what we have heard before.

And consider a few other issues:

#1 - is this is formal system that we are going to use to police sport? Random agencies with holding evidence until AFTER judgement? Exceeding the statute of limitation to go after you even after they have retired?

#2 - My biggest concern is exactly the rumor and innuendo that surround this case ... or Wiggins 'cadence' or Cancellera's mechanical doping. There has to be a system in place that allows evidence, and not rumors, to be the determiner of guilt.

Leaks from the UCI to embarass WADA and the opposite, etc. are not helping anything. And as we see right here in this thread, asking for evidence - withholding judgement until the evidence is released .... is, horrible?

Invites ridicule and insults?

So please bear in mind a few points. One, several people are already convinced of something without seeing the evidence. Two, we have tons of rumors, few facts regarding this case. Three, no matter what is released, in can, will, and should be rebutted.

When we get ourselves into a situation where not only is guilt predetermined, but animosity is laced with any rebuttal as a Vrijman slander? That is not an evidenced based look. That is an obsession.

A reminder, I don;t give a rip whether Lance doped or not. I do care that we use a system that established guilt in an impartial manner. Because what happens here will effect more than Lance - and the silence from the peloton should tell us something.

I think you have missed some very simple points.

1. It is not a random agency far from it, in fact it is an agency set up to do exactly what it is doing.
2.The system does allow evidence to be the deciding factor in cases, the defendant in the matter however must defend himself otherwise forfeit the case.
3 Withholding judgement until the evidence is released is horrible ? see point 2,would be in the public domain if only it was contested.
4.This rebuttal you talk about could have been done in an open hearing. Why do you think they are waiting before they release any rebuttal ? Time maybe?

 

[python]

so far, the small bits that render themselves to reading between the lines, point me to 2 conclusions:

1. there is already an executive unpublished and unofficial summary, that those in the need to know already received.

2. the delay is not due to lack of evidence, rather its abundance, thus necessitating a careful selective process b/c the very foundation of the sport's past is about to be shaken.

beyond these 2 observations, i think the rest of the delay is part tactical, part political. the factors we fans can only speculate on.

 

[sittingbison]

it doesn't really matter who fired first...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

If we assume that USADA already had a watertight case against Lance then presumably any new evidence must relate to the case against others. As Lance has already been banned for life and had all his results since 1998 revoked, his sporting career is pretty much dead, and you can't kill someone twice.

If the new evidence does relate to Lance then either the previous case was not considered watertight or USADA are after all his other results, limited though they may be. I can't recall off the top of my head who the 1993 World Champion would be in this case, but whoever it is might be getting quite excited!

 

[the big ring]

If we assume that USADA already had a watertight case against Lance then presumably any new evidence must relate to the case against others. As Lance has already been banned for life and had all his results since 1998 revoked, his sporting career is pretty much dead, and you can't kill someone twice.

If the new evidence does relate to Lance then either the previous case was not considered watertight or USADA are after all his other results, limited though they may be. I can't recall off the top of my head who the 1993 World Champion would be in this case, but whoever it is might be getting quite excited!

That is one way of looking at it.

But if you as a prosecutor have a watertight case, and more evidence presents itself, are you going to ignore it?

I wouldn't.

The oath in court is:

the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

If there are new truths, they need to be told.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, but I've been lurking a long time. I really hate Lance, and I KNOW he doped, but this delay really bothers me. I mean, shouldn't USADA really have their stuff together? I mean, sure, Armstrong's been cheating the system for 15+ years, the whole time paying off the governing body of the sport, buying USAC and even attempting to buy the TDF, all while engaged in a multimillion-dollar PR blitz to discredit and an all who speak against him...but so what! We really shouldn't have to wait an extra 2 weeks for an organization with a staff of fewer than 10 people to provide the details we need. I mean, what sort of process is this! look, I know Lance (who I KNOW doped) had a chance to confront the evidence in arbitration, but come on, athletes NEVER win there (look at all the athletes who've been railroaded by them, Landis, Hamilton, Jones, etc...USADA ALWAYS WINS! HOW IS THAT FAIR).

Really, I HATE Lance, but this is about fairness. How is it fair, just because Armstrong and Co. threatened witnesses, lobbied congress to stop the process, sued USADA at every turn to avoid confronting the "evidence", hired PI's to follow USADA employees, and hired half of K-Street to beat the rap...why do they think they can delay a couple of weeks sending this stuff to the UCI. This just really seems questionable to me...

I sincerely appreciate you providing a cut and paste option for people like the OP. You have provided a good and valuable service, and should be lauded for your effort.

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[Wallace and Gromit]

That is one way of looking at it.

But if you as a prosecutor have a watertight case, and more evidence presents itself, are you going to ignore it?

I wouldn't.

The oath in court is:

the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

If there are new truths, they need to be told.

Fair point, though I would have thought that the longer things drag on, the greater the chance of some procedural error being committed, giving Lance a potential get out of jail card. Thus, I would move quickly.

If the new evidence is really damning - e.g. (and I'm not suggesting this actually happened!) Lance using physical force to administer EPO to team mates rather than simply "persuading" them - then it would be worth airing, even if it couldn't give rise to even greater punishment.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

As poupou said (the real one) they might as well go all the way backk to 1903...