What's wrong with GTs routes nowadays?

[Gigs_98]

I think you are right

But I have to say that I also miss the athletes who risk everything to get a win. I think the Schleck brothers were the last of there kind. Galibier stage 2011, le grand bornand stage 2009 and even the bagneres de luchon stage 2010 (although schleck lost the tour that day). There are hardly any attacks like that from really big favorites in TdF of the last years. I think that is also because todays top cyclists in the mountains often are also the best in the time trials (that would also be an argument against longer time trials because everyone would have problems to beat contador and froome). But you do not even have to think back to the 90`s to see heroic stages. What is with the Morzine stage of the 2006 TdF (Maybe the last time ever with such a great attack although Landis doped and by the way: do you think the ASO will ever give us a mountain stage with no MtF as the last mountain stage of a TdF again? I fear they won't)
So all in all I agree, most GT of the last years were Bulls***t. But I think the TdF still is better than the other ones. This year the stages might not be very long but the mountain stages are full of mountains (well only the stages in the alps but the Tourmalet stage also seems to be quite interesting) So the athletes will definitely have the chance to attack about 50km in front of the finish. And the second part is that I love hill top finishes because there you really have a guarantee of attacks.
On the other side the Vuelta courses of the last few years were garbage. One mountain top finish after another mountain top finish. boring as hell.
Ps: As you can probably think (just look at my username) I am not very old but believe me I completely understand you because even in the last 5 years GTs became more boring.

 

[nhowson]

But I have to say that I also miss the athletes who risk everything to get a win. I think the Schleck brothers were the last of there kind. Galibier stage 2011, le grand bornand stage 2009 and even the bagneres de luchon stage 2010 (although schleck lost the tour that day). There are hardly any attacks like that from really big favorites in TdF of the last years. I think that is also because todays top cyclists in the mountains often are also the best in the time trials (that would also be an argument against longer time trials because everyone would have problems to beat contador and froome). But you do not even have to think back to the 90`s to see heroic stages. What is with the Morzine stage of the 2006 TdF (Maybe the last time ever with such a great attack although Landis doped and by the way: do you think the ASO will ever give us a mountain stage with no MtF as the last mountain stage of a TdF again? I fear they won't)
So all in all I agree, most GT of the last years were Bulls***t. But I think the TdF still is better than the other ones. This year the stages might not be very long but the mountain stages are full of mountains (well only the stages in the alps but the Tourmalet stage also seems to be quite interesting) So the athletes will definitely have the chance to attack about 50km in front of the finish. And the second part is that I love hill top finishes because there you really have a guarantee of attacks.
On the other side the Vuelta courses of the last few years were garbage. One mountain top finish after another mountain top finish. boring as hell.
Ps: As you can probably think (just look at my username) I am not very old but believe me I completely understand you because even in the last 5 years GTs became more boring.

We need more descent finishes. That Morzine stage was so well designed, even discounting the excitement of Landis' attack. They need long TTs before the mountains though, because the very reason riders aren't attacking from 50km out and the like is because the gaps aren't big enough that they need to do that. Give Quintana a 2 minute handicap on Stage 20 and watch him go on the Galibier. Give him 20 seconds and he'll try and jump away with 3kms to go on Alle D'Huez. Don't worry about the age thing, the users here are very good at disregarding any of the standing people may or may not have, and also treat users the same if they are veterans or newbies to the forum.

 

[Eshnar]

I think that is also because todays top cyclists in the mountains often are also the best in the time trials (that would also be an argument against longer time trials because everyone would have problems to beat contador and froome).

First of all, welcome
Secondly, I could point out that the argument "let's limit TTs otherwise Froome and AC will smash the field" works also for the mountains.
"Let's limit the MTFs otherwise Froome and AC will smash the field". Makes perfect sense. \
We could make a GT with 5 flat ITTs, 15 bunch sprints and a single MTF to Cauterets... in that case are you still sure Froome or AC would smash the field?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But I have to say that I also miss the athletes who risk everything to get a win. I think the Schleck brothers were the last of there kind. Galibier stage 2011, le grand bornand stage 2009 and even the bagneres de luchon stage 2010 (although schleck lost the tour that day). There are hardly any attacks like that from really big favorites in TdF of the last years.

You're looking back on the Schlecks with very rose-tinted glasses there. LGB in 2009 they didn't really do too much, it was Sastre (who didn't have it but had lost time already so had to go) who started the moves, and the Schlecks only attacked when the group was already whittled down, and they only really blew people who would have gone out the back anyway. Galibier in 2011 was a big all-or-nothing gamble, agreed, but the reason Andy had to make that gamble was because he raced like a complete and utter coward on Luz Ardiden and Plateau de Beille and then descended like Ivan Basso's grandmother on rollerskates into Gap. Are you also forgetting that Alberto Contador attacked 90km out the very day after that, and the epic Fuente D? raid, borrowing from the Cunego/Heras playbook? How about Thomas de Gendt in 2012, the only rider other than a sub-par Cunego willing to actually try to win that race?

The issue is that the parcours are now very homogenized. Especially with the Vuelta tending towards super-steep short-to-mid-length climbs and marginalizing the ITT, the current tendency in cycling to go MTF in order to "guarantee" gaps kills off the possibilities to go from afar; teams are often too strong nowadays to be utterly shredded by a move from more than the penultimate climb and even that is rare nowadays. A move like Floyd in Morzine was only made possible by the extent to which the p?loton had been decimated pre-race by Puerto so that there were few teams with the strength to help Caisse d'Epargne in the chase, or the teams that could have had the strength had their leader missing so no reason to assist. An easy or short climb off the back of a descent from a killer climb is a much better stage design, but it offers a comparatively limited selection when the places that have paid for stages in recent times are taken into account.

 

[Red Rick]

But I have to say that I also miss the athletes who risk everything to get a win. I think the Schleck brothers were the last of there kind

I think my mind just exploded. Somebody call 911

 

[Escarabajo]

If riders are going to dope no matter what, I want to see the "carnage" stages again. That was what made a distinction between a GT mountain stage compare to any stage of other race. That's what makes them valuable. That's what makes me salivate duting a GT.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Ps: As you can probably think (just look at my username) I am not very old but believe me I completely understand you because even in the last 5 years GTs became more boring.

Welcome to the forum, Gigs_98

 

[Arredondo]

If riders are going to dope no matter what, I want to see the "carnage" stages again. That was what made a distinction between a GT mountain stage compare to any stage of other race. That's what makes them valuable. That's what makes me salivate duting a GT.

A couple of days ago, i watched some mountain stages from the Tour back in 2006. At the end i was quite depressed

 

[Pantani_lives]

To me a time trial in a GT can be one of the most exciting things in cycling, not boring at all.

I agree that the TdF was more exciting in the 80s and 90s. The mountain stages often had a final with ten to twenty riders over more than one climb. There was an open battle between the leaders. Nowadays there's a group of over 50 riders that reaches the final climb. They often wait until the final 5K or even less.

Something I would like to see more often is a mountain time trial, not necessarily on a very tough climb.

Is there a solution? I don't think there's that much wrong with the course. A good race needs initiative from the favorites. We've seen Giro stages on an extremely tough course where not much happened. But then a Vuelta stage in the middle mountains can all of a sudden become exciting when one of te favorites attacks. So I don't think tougher stages are always better, although it would be good if not everything was focused on those short explosive finishes but more on endurance over several climbs.

 

[Gigs_98]

You're looking back on the Schlecks with very rose-tinted glasses there. LGB in 2009 they didn't really do too much, it was Sastre (who didn't have it but had lost time already so had to go) who started the moves, and the Schlecks only attacked when the group was already whittled down, and they only really blew people who would have gone out the back anyway. Galibier in 2011 was a big all-or-nothing gamble, agreed, but the reason Andy had to make that gamble was because he raced like a complete and utter coward on Luz Ardiden and Plateau de Beille and then descended like Ivan Basso's grandmother on rollerskates into Gap. Are you also forgetting that Alberto Contador attacked 90km out the very day after that, and the epic Fuente D? raid, borrowing from the Cunego/Heras playbook? How about Thomas de Gendt in 2012, the only rider other than a sub-par Cunego willing to actually try to win that race?

Yes it was false to say that the schleck brothers were the last of there kind but I still think that today there are less athletes which risk so much. Contador is someone who sometimes makes great attacks (like the Fuente De stage or the Alp d Huez stage 2011) and there are other cyclists too (like de gendt or talansky at last years dauphine but especially Nairo Quintana who reminds me a little bit on the Schlecks by the way) But especially when you look to the TdF Andy Schleck was the last one who set a attack with over 50km to go which really worked and that grinds my gears that there was no really great attack by a nr.1 favorite in the TdF in the last 3 years.