What's wrong with ITTs ?

[cleverhans]

"race of truth"

Nothing wrong with ITTs. We're in a climate of raised awareness of PEDs, so perhaps it's getting harder to present something called a "race of truth". See? It's down to climate change

 

[hfer07]

2007: three mountain top finishes around 110 TT KM. Seems even enough. 2008 seemed balanced to me as well. The 2009 Giro was heavily favoured to the TTers. The Bottle was in contention for a while for god sake.

+1000
2007 with those two ITT was very exiting to watch. i even go further back to the Hinault era when ITT could go up to 75 Km

 

[fezzer]

Shoot me, but at the Giro I actually took myself in wanting an extra bunch-sprint or two in the last weeks.

One more ITT in the GT's would be nice aswell.

 

[Bavarianrider]

+1000
2007 with those two ITT was very exiting to watch. i even go further back to the Hinault era when ITT could go up to 75 Km

TT force climbers to attack and show something in the mountains.
It gaves rolleurs a chance to shine and allrounders a chance to make result in the GC.

 

[icefire]

I'm still amazed that this question is being asked over and over. Race organisers get their revenue from advertising and TV broadcasting rights. The larger the audience, the larger their revenue. And they have hard evidence that audiences drop in ITT stages. It's that simple.

 

[Bavarianrider]

I'm still amazed that this question is being asked over and over. Race organisers get their revenue from advertising and TV broadcasting rights. The larger the audience, the larger their revenue. And they have hard evidence that audiences drop in ITT stages. It's that simple.

Even if that was true, which i doubt. Why do TT always get shorter then? If there's a day with a TT in a GT then a 60km course certainly wont draw less audience then 35km

 

[icefire]

Even if that was true, which i doubt. Why do TT always get shorter then? If there's a day with a TT in a GT then a 60km course certainly wont draw less audience then 35km

You might need to check the time splits in mountain stages 25 years ago and compare with today's figures to understand that.

 

[Scansorial]

I'm still amazed that this question is being asked over and over. Race organisers get their revenue from advertising and TV broadcasting rights. The larger the audience, the larger their revenue. And they have hard evidence that audiences drop in ITT stages. It's that simple.

While I agree that the actual ITT itself is boring to watch, there are certain circumstances where having more ITTs could make the rest of the race closer and more exciting to watch, and therefore more people would watch later on. I do worry that Contador would dominate even more with more ITTs, so this might not be one of those cases.

I don't get the fascination with the TTT. That can't get many more viewers than an ITT, can it? If they love the pure climbers so much, just add an uphill ITT.

 

[webvan]

All good points, audiences, favoring the stars of the moment...I remember that in the early 80s there was a small French climber called Martin (podiumed at least once) who complained that their course favored racers like Hinault with all the ITTs. But at the time there were sometimes four or five when counting the TTT and the prologue ! In 1985 I remember that stellar 75km ITT in the Vosges where Hinault put 2+ minutes into everyone, Lemond, Roche, Kelly, etc...then there was an ITT in Villard de Lans where Vanderarden won thanks to the wind and then the last one that Lemond one I think. In 1989 it was the same thing including the last one of course in Paris.

What's puzzling to me is why Pescheux would publicly declare that an ITT in the middle of the tour is useless...it defies common sense when you look at the history of the GTs, 2009 Giro of course, 2003 TDF to name but two recent ones that were decisive.

I wonder what teams have to say about that, they never seem to comment on the course...is it the old "riders make the race" or do they know there's no point picking that fight with GT organizers? As someone wrote, if Schleck fails again this year as seems to be his wont, we might see the return of a long middle ITT next year...

 

[Bavarianrider]

Morzine da Joux Plane 1982
1 Peter Winnen CAP NED 7:34'20''
2 Johan van der Velde RAL NED 32''
3 Jean-René Bernaudeau PEU FRA 1'24''
4 Robert Alban RED FRA 1'51''
5 Sven-Ake Nilsson WOL SWE 1'53''
6 Bernard Hinault REN FRA 2'27''
7 Phil Anderson PEU AUS
8 Joop Zoetemelk COO NED 2'28''
9 Alberto Fernandez TEK SPA
10 Raymond Martin

1997

1 Marco Pantani MER ITA 5:57'16''
2 Richard Virenque FES FRA 1'17''
3 Jan Ullrich TEL GER
4 Beat Zberg MER SWI 1'59''
5 Francesco Casagrande SAE ITA
6 Bobby Julich COF USA
7 Fernando Escartin KEL SPA
8 Bjarne Riis TEL DEN 2'06''
9 José Maria Jiménez BAN SPA 2'37''
10 Oscar Camenzind MAP SWI 3'29''

2000
1 Richard Virenque PLT FRA 5:32'20''
2 Jan Ullrich TEL GER 24''
3 Roberto Heras KEL SPA 27''
4 Fernando Escartin KEL SPA 1'09''
5 Joseba Beloki FES SPA 1'11''
6 Pascal Hervé PLT FRA
7 Guido Trentin VIN ITA 2'01''
8 Lance Armstrong USP USA
9 Christophe Moreau FES FRA
10 Santiago Botero KEL

2006
1 Floyd Landis PHO USA 5:23'36''
2 Carlos Sastre CSC SPA 5'42''
3 Christophe Moreau AG2 FRA 5'58''
4 Damiano Cunego LAM ITA 6'40''
5 Michael Boogerd RAB NED 7'08''
6 Frank Schleck CSC LUX
7 Oscar Pereiro CEI SPA
8 Andreas Klöden TMO GER
9 Haimar Zubeldia EUS SPA
10 Cadel Evans DVL AUS 7'20''

 

[taiwan]

Thing about chronos is that they take importance from the road stages of Grand Tours (i.e. mountain stages) so that teh stakes are slightly lower in the actual racing. The lack of immediacy makes them less exciting. Then again there is no other 'counterweight' to moderate the advantage of the climbing specialists.

You asked.

 

[Parrulo]

Morzine da Joux Plane 1982
1 Peter Winnen CAP NED 7:34'20''
2 Johan van der Velde RAL NED 32''
3 Jean-René Bernaudeau PEU FRA 1'24''
4 Robert Alban RED FRA 1'51''
5 Sven-Ake Nilsson WOL SWE 1'53''
6 Bernard Hinault REN FRA 2'27''
7 Phil Anderson PEU AUS
8 Joop Zoetemelk COO NED 2'28''
9 Alberto Fernandez TEK SPA
10 Raymond Martin

1997

1 Marco Pantani MER ITA 5:57'16''
2 Richard Virenque FES FRA 1'17''
3 Jan Ullrich TEL GER
4 Beat Zberg MER SWI 1'59''
5 Francesco Casagrande SAE ITA
6 Bobby Julich COF USA
7 Fernando Escartin KEL SPA
8 Bjarne Riis TEL DEN 2'06''
9 José Maria Jiménez BAN SPA 2'37''
10 Oscar Camenzind MAP SWI 3'29''

2000
1 Richard Virenque PLT FRA 5:32'20''
2 Jan Ullrich TEL GER 24''
3 Roberto Heras KEL SPA 27''
4 Fernando Escartin KEL SPA 1'09''
5 Joseba Beloki FES SPA 1'11''
6 Pascal Hervé PLT FRA
7 Guido Trentin VIN ITA 2'01''
8 Lance Armstrong USP USA
9 Christophe Moreau FES FRA
10 Santiago Botero KEL

2006
1 Floyd Landis PHO USA 5:23'36''
2 Carlos Sastre CSC SPA 5'42''
3 Christophe Moreau AG2 FRA 5'58''
4 Damiano Cunego LAM ITA 6'40''
5 Michael Boogerd RAB NED 7'08''
6 Frank Schleck CSC LUX
7 Oscar Pereiro CEI SPA
8 Andreas Klöden TMO GER
9 Haimar Zubeldia EUS SPA
10 Cadel Evans DVL AUS 7'20''

ofc posting a smile and a bunch of random results without even trying to explain what you are trying to point out with said results proves you right. . . .

 

[roundabout]

All good points, audiences, favoring the stars of the moment...I remember that in the early 80s there was a small French climber called Martin (podiumed at least once) who complained that their course favored racers like Hinault with all the ITTs. But at the time there were sometimes four or five when counting the TTT and the prologue ! In 1985 I remember that stellar 75km ITT in the Vosges where Hinault put 2+ minutes into everyone, Lemond, Roche, Kelly, etc...then there was an ITT in Villard de Lans where Vanderarden won thanks to the wind and then the last one that Lemond one I think. In 1989 it was the same thing including the last one of course in Paris.

What's puzzling to me is why Pescheux would publicly declare that an ITT in the middle of the tour is useless...it defies common sense when you look at the history of the GTs, 2009 Giro of course, 2003 TDF to name but two recent ones that were decisive.
(
I wonder what teams have to say about that, they never seem to comment on the course...is it the old "riders make the race" or do they know there's no point picking that fight with GT organizers? As someone wrote, if Schleck fails again this year as seems to be his wont, we might see the return of a long middle ITT next year...

What's a long middle ITT? Stage 10 or so? Before the first set of mountains or after?

Thinking of the Tours post 1995 there was 1 long flat TT in 1996, 1 long flat TT in 1997 (St Etienne one was long but tough), 1 in 2000, 1 in 2001, 1 in 2004, 1 in 2005 and all of them in the final 3 days IIRC.

Also in a sense too much time trialing ruined the 2006 Tour. Klöden wasn't really convincing on the climbs and still ended up 2nd*.

 

[icefire]

ofc posting a smile and a bunch of random results without even trying to explain what you are trying to point out with said results proves you right. . . .

There are two interesting things in his post, actually:
1983 and 1984 are missing.
If you look at the results of mountain stages back in the 80's you can see that guys like Fignon and Hinault in their prime could lose a few minutes in a stage not to a random guy in a breakaway but to podium contenders and then gain that time back in another day. That was quite normal then when they did not ride looking at their SRM and the science of athletic performance and recovery was not what we know. If we see that today we think Landis.

 

[rhubroma]

"Maybe a few more MTFs"?? Are you kidding me??? Never in the history of cycling has there been so many MTFs. Mountain stages have now been made synonymous with MTFs. Long gone are the classic stages in the Pyrenees with the finish in Bagneres de Luchon or in the Alps with the Galibier etc. and finish in Briançon... I'm sick and tired of the major overbooking of MTFs, and people are asking for even more of them??

As to the topic, I will never understand the current repulsion towards ITTs in Grand Tours (especially since the trend hasn't seemed to affect the one-week races, many times organised by the same companies as the GTs...). The classic parcours would have a prologue ITT, sometimes (but not ALWAYS) a TTT the first days, a long ITT at the end of the first week and another long ITT at the end.

Not only have the GTs got rid of one of the ITTs, but they've kept the one that offers the least advantage to the roulers GT contenders: the last one. If we have a look at the gaps in the first and the last ITTs over history we'll see the gaps were significantly bigger in the first one, since everyone was fresher and powerful riders could turn on their engines and impose a huge blow on the climbers, who, and here's the important part, were forced to ATTACK in the mountains, and not in the last kms, but far from the finish, therefore lengthening the spectacle.

Spoken like a true descender.

But good analysis. I'd be all for it so long as we put a couple of marathon 5 cols stages, after the 60 k ITT (like back in the 80's)...and let the best man win as they say.

 

[The Hitch]

ofc posting a smile and a bunch of random results without even trying to explain what you are trying to point out with said results proves you right. . . .

I overestimated you Parrulo.

What you are probably too stupid to understand is the genius of Bavarianriders post.

His stats prove beyond all doubt that Itts should have a bigger presence in Grand Tours, that 2% climbs are just as hard as 14% ones and that Tony Martin will top 10 the Tour de France.

They also amazingly go a long way to proving that the other Gts should be shortened to accommodate Cali, and that Zomegnan deserved to get fired.

I honestly dont see how you can be so dumb as to miss that. Not only was the post so well presented, it also made it plainly obvious to the reader what the point of the argument was.

All in such a short space.

Brevity is wit.

Post of the year.

 

[Parrulo]

i am not stupid!!!

the doctor says i am mentally challenged!!! they are different things

anyway ty for explaining me what bavarianrider meant. its only normal that i can't keep up with his superior intellect

 

[Michielveedeebee]

i am not stupid!!!

the doctor says i am mentally challenged!!! they are different things

 

[doperhopper]

As it was pointed out in this discussion, the mountains now make less and less difference since the cycling became more "competitive" (incl. domestiques that cover everything until the first half of the last climb). Or as one climber of the past said - <clinic warning> I became suspicious when people with fat asses suddenly managed to stay with climbers <end of clinic warning> (in early nineties).

 

[IlCobraFan]

ITTs in the first week don't have good enough TV ratings. Very simple.

 

[webvan]

Dunno, to me ITTs always been as exciting as mountain stages because there are gaps and the strong men come to the surface. If anything it's the last ITT that's useless, 1989 being the exception of course, the riders are just too tired I guess. Put a 50km ITT before the mountains this year and that will put Schemer two minutes behind Wigan.

The results of Joux Plane show it should be compulsory in each TDF, big gaps and lots of suffering, 2006 was epic, everyone looked as they were about to die, except for Landis of course, not to mention the only known bad day of the cache cache boy. Probably because the domestiques are gone or can't do much, like Guerini and Mazzolini in 2006.

Anyway it really doesn't make sense for a three-week race to have one ITT like a one week race, even Pescheux should understand that. I'm surprised the big mouthed Wigans hasn't tweeted about that yet.

 

[riobonito92]

Surely it should be possible to use GPS technology, more split times, more split screen views etc to make ITTs more compelling TV.

Instead we get commentators basically guessing how fast someone is going and backing up their guesses with useless verbiage about body language and cadence.

 

[roundabout]

You want them to lose their jobs or have to actually think during the coverage?

No, no, no.

 

[greenedge]

I find it interesting that there are no races of truth midweek in GT's so much now. However they would have changed it this this yr due to the fact, they want Shleck fresh for the mountains and the fact the organisers are sick of seeing Martin winning one week races due to an ITT. They need more varied stages and maybe longer sprint stages.

 

[rzombie1988]

I'd like to see more ITT's. I'd certainly take them over some lame sprint stages, but would not want to see more if they cut into the mountain stages.