Wheelsucking

[Nick C.]

Re:

I don't care personally, but this obviously came up due to Van Avermaet "wheelsucking."

Here is the big issue, Van Avermaet has been quoted several time saying his is "confident how he can beat Sagan" (paraphrasing) after his last win against him a few weeks back.

He sits on the back of 7 other riders, then barely beats Sagan in the sprint after "sitting" on conserving energy...then he is running around being quoted as "hey, I'm as good if not better than Sagan" attitude for that move.

In the recent race, Sagan also said it best, none of us on the podium would have been there if they had not canceled the climbing stage due to weather...they all would have gone off the back by 5+ minutes and the climbers, who dominate this race, go screwed. So he took it as a victory in a sense..yet peeved at Van Avermaet some and his lame excuse for not pulling ever.

Tactic? Sure, you are paid to win races. But his ridiculous quotes/statements and reasons for doing such is what I think makes most people lose respect for the guy. And other riders.

In Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, Sagan bridged off the front of the Peloton to catch the break Van Avermaet was in, and Sagan immediately started working and taking pulls. Then Van Avermaet claims he is confident that people can beat Sagan without being a better sprinter. This is what is ridiculous. He made a good move, was in the break, Sagan you could say missed it. But to make a massive bridge, obviously taking away a lot of energy for a sprint, is bold and shows his strength. Tactics is where Sagan has been criticized. He should just start sitting in and doing nothing, then with 5k to go, launch off the front of races like that and just win flat out, like the World's.

Then again, Sagan was criticized by Cancellera a few years ago for sitting on his wheel then beating him in a sprint in a classic..so goes both way. But typically, you will see guys working.

Wasn't that in the first week of the Tour the year Sagan won multiple stages? I think Cancellara went off the front. Sagan bridged. Sagan wouldn't come around. Cancellara sat up. Sagan won the group sprint that followed.

 

[Pippo_San]

Wheelsucking doesn't exist. Tactics on the other hand...it's just that fans are never happy. Especially cycling fans.
Only 2 things are to be condemned.
1. Stages neutralization because of pussy pro riders.
2. Stages cancellation before even getting to know the real situation.

This is *** pro cycling. Let it be an all out war and a real show.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

wheelsucker and other similar terms is just a consequence of dismal fan psychology 'i'm god, the rider should do everything to entertain me'.

No entertained fans => no viewership or merchanise sales => no pro cycling.

yes, but you can't remain all the fans entertained especially when one rider slaughtering others uphill makes some people to talk about him ruining cycling for them.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Most of the peloton technically are wheelsuckers except those in the front. But that is ok
The example of wheeksucking comes from Gerrans in WC. Kwia is off the front. A small chase group forms. Gilbert is chasing furiously. Gerrans refuses to come through. In the sprint Gerrans takes 2nd and claims that he would have won. How is it possible to win when you don't chase the guy in the front. Similar example of Gerrans in MSR win.
However Gerrans won LBL by putting his team on the front to keep the pace high and chase down any attacks. Finally won by sprinting in the last k. But this is not wheelsucking even though the race is extremely boring.
The reason Van Avermaet says that Sagan is beatable not becos Van Avermaet is better but becos Sagan usually makes a mistake. Also Sagan is no longer as powerful as before. Besides in TDF2015 he beat Sagan fair and square

 

[May0maniac]

The clown also said that he was heartbroken because he only got 2nd...

 

[SafeBet]

When you are in a chasing group, but a teammate is in the front group with chances of winning, you should not pull.

Unless you've got a good friend in the group.

 

[Flamin]

Re:

I don't care personally, but this obviously came up due to Van Avermaet "wheelsucking."

Here is the big issue, Van Avermaet has been quoted several time saying his is "confident how he can beat Sagan" (paraphrasing) after his last win against him a few weeks back.

He sits on the back of 7 other riders, then barely beats Sagan in the sprint after "sitting" on conserving energy...then he is running around being quoted as "hey, I'm as good if not better than Sagan" attitude for that move.

In the recent race, Sagan also said it best, none of us on the podium would have been there if they had not canceled the climbing stage due to weather...they all would have gone off the back by 5+ minutes and the climbers, who dominate this race, go screwed. So he took it as a victory in a sense..yet peeved at Van Avermaet some and his lame excuse for not pulling ever.

Tactic? Sure, you are paid to win races. But his ridiculous quotes/statements and reasons for doing such is what I think makes most people lose respect for the guy. And other riders.

In Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, Sagan bridged off the front of the Peloton to catch the break Van Avermaet was in, and Sagan immediately started working and taking pulls. Then Van Avermaet claims he is confident that people can beat Sagan without being a better sprinter. This is what is ridiculous. He made a good move, was in the break, Sagan you could say missed it. But to make a massive bridge, obviously taking away a lot of energy for a sprint, is bold and shows his strength. Tactics is where Sagan has been criticized. He should just start sitting in and doing nothing, then with 5k to go, launch off the front of races like that and just win flat out, like the World's.

Then again, Sagan was criticized by Cancellera a few years ago for sitting on his wheel then beating him in a sprint in a classic..so goes both way. But typically, you will see guys working.

Link please.

 

[Brullnux]

It may be annoying to watch, but I understand why people do it, most of the time. Sometimes, like Gerrans WC 2014, it backfires. Other times it pays off, like Gerrans LBL or MSR in 2012/2014.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

To me that term is the most stupid one in this forum (and other forums too), and it's not used in professional peloton, at least not among serious riders. It's a term for armchair cyclists and "experts". It's not a serious thing, and anybody who use that term is not seriously taken by me. I acknowledge strong riding, brave riding, smart riding, not so smart riding, stupid riding, coward riding, and many many more.., but wheelsucking.., well frankly I don't even know what that means, and I don't want to know!

You're right, you know. People who race don't generally use it - it's a term for fans. Honestly, I hate the term and I don't think I've ever applied it to a rider.

At some point everyone "wheelsucks". Most of the time it's guys just playing to their strength in a given situation, following orders from the DS, or not being strong enough to attack or pull. King Boonen is right - people will use the term quickly with a rider they don't like, yet take offense to it when applied to a rider they support.

 

[hrotha]

If everybody wheelsucked, cycling would be all sorts of dull. Hence I dislike wheelsuckers.

It's not complicated.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

Well that's not true is it, Sky are not an exciting team to watch yet when i'm out on the bike I see Sky jerseys everywhere

"When I'm out on the bike I see Sky jerseys" isn't a reliable base on which to build a business model.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I love wheelsuckers. They add a great element to the narrative, which is cycling's greatest strength.

 

[Nick C.]

Re:

It may be annoying to watch, but I understand why people do it, most of the time. Sometimes, like Gerrans WC 2014, it backfires. Other times it pays off, like Gerrans LBL or MSR in 2012/2014.

Gerran goes back to a Tour stage where he was in a break with Egoi Martinez I think and claimed he couldn't come through, then came around in the last two hundred meters. One man's gamesmanship/taking advantage of a gullible person is another's weasely aka wheelsucker behavior.

 

[Gloin22]

Re: Re:

Well that's not true is it, Sky are not an exciting team to watch yet when i'm out on the bike I see Sky jerseys everywhere

"When I'm out on the bike I see Sky jerseys" isn't a reliable base on which to build a business model.

And neither is your base, most people that watch cycling don't mind wheelsucking because most won't even know what that term means.

Anyway, most succesfull team = most jerseys, Sky is always going sell most as long as they dominate.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I love wheelsuckers. They add a great element to the narrative, which is cycling's greatest strength.

Yeah they can sometimes be an interesting factor in races but imo cycling without wheelsucking actions like Gerrans in the WC 2014 the sport would be more interesting. I don't mean reasonable wheelsucking (you have a team mate in the group behind you, you aren't a good sprinter,...) which is just logical but generally I would prefer the sport without riders like Gerrans.
Again, I don't say its a stupid or a unfair tactic it just sometimes annoys me.

 

[del1962]

I think the sand bagger is the most annooying, I have seen Voeckler pull this sort of trick in a break, I rider who I have no respect for

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

I love wheelsuckers. They add a great element to the narrative, which is cycling's greatest strength.

Yeah they can sometimes be an interesting factor in races but imo cycling without wheelsucking actions like Gerrans in the WC 2014 the sport would be more interesting. I don't mean reasonable wheelsucking (you have a team mate in the group behind you, you aren't a good sprinter,...) which is just logical but generally I would prefer the sport without riders like Gerrans.
Again, I don't say its a stupid or a unfair tactic it just sometimes annoys me.

Well, that's a bit like saying you would prefer if every football team in the world would play attacking football no matter the opponent. Entertaining? Surely, but not very realistic.

I definitely understand and accept when riders sit on for tactical reasons (being outnumbered, having a team mate behind, leaving the work to the bigger favourites etc.) but what really pisses me off is when riders are overly cautious and are afraid to put their nose in the wind even though they are in a favourable position at the front.

 

[carton]

Re:

I think the sand bagger is the most annooying, I have seen Voeckler pull this sort of trick in a break, I rider who I have no respect for

Yep, sand-bagging is the most worst type of wheelsucking, from an entertainment point of view. Which is the point of view from which the charge is always levied. Catching up to teammates on an earlier break, à la Andy Schleck, is by far the best.

The "second-least" entertaining vintage of wheelsucking is what GVA did at Tirreno, semi-sandbagging. You have a shot of winning the race, but you won't pull because of BS reasons (really, it's because you're betting the other guys are willing to go for it even it means dragging you along). It may make for great tactics but doesn't do it for me. YMWV. I'll root for the more aggressive riders who made the situation possible. To be fair, van Avermaet has at times (less recently) been amongst that group as well.

So I 'll toast those who in any competition go about entertaining their fans above and beyond what said competition requires of them. I may be a sucker, but I do think some guys not only genuinely care and have the ability and charisma to pull it off: Steph Curry, Dominique Wilkins, Muggsy Bogues; Nadia Comaneci, Diana Taurasi, Justine Henin; Alberto Contador, Peter Sagan, Juan Mauricio Soler; Johan Cruyff, Mané Garrincha, George Best; Valentino Rossi, Ayrton Senna, James Hunt. I don't like all of those guys. Some of them are jerks, cheats, even show-offs. But they ran through the tape, kept the pedal to the medal, willed the ball through, insert your own cliche. And I thoroughly enjoyed it, even when I was rooting against them. I'll take the epic loss over the routine win, everytime. We'll, except for when my home team's playing. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

Calling someone a wheelsucker when they win is bad form, sure. They raced smart and they won. Winning is the essence of competition; drafting ("wheelsucking") and the tactics around is, more than anything, what makes cycling fun, why "attacks" make sense to begin with. But then again good manners is usually just a way to avoid uncomfortable truths.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Whatever about the specific term "wheelsucker", the idea that professional racers don't sneer at opponents who make a habit of sitting on and not working even when it should in theory be to their advantage is complete nonsense. Whether they are right to do so is another question, but there's never been a shortage of pros willing to sulk about someone else doing that.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

From the rider's point of view working as little as possible is in most circumstances sensible tactics. Refusing to work when it is probably in your interest to work is not smart tactics but sometimes happens, particularly when the rider in question is a customarily conservative one with a decent finishing sprint. Most of the time though "wheelsuckers" were playing to their strengths.

From the fan's point of view, we watch the sport for entertainment. Attacking riding is entertaining, anything that tends to make the race more conservative is dull. Therefore riders who rarely attack, even though they might be playing to their strengths in an entirely rational manner, are less popular and sometimes actively disliked.

Neither point of view is in any way unreasonable.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Whatever about the specific term "wheelsucker", the idea that professional racers don't sneer at opponents who make a habit of sitting on and not working even when it should in theory be to their advantage is complete nonsense. Whether they are right to do so is another question, but there's never been a shortage of pros willing to sulk about someone else doing that.

I agree but the key is in "opponents who make a habit of sitting on and not working even when it should in theory be to their advantage"

Most of the time people around here label people as wheelsuckers when sitting on is to their (and their team's) advantage

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

I agree but the key is in "opponents who make a habit of sitting on and not working even when it should in theory be to their advantage"

Most of the time people around here label people as wheelsuckers when sitting on is to their (and their team's) advantage

That I agree with almost entirely. Fans do that constantly and it's best ignored as simple sour grapes.

The "almost" is because for some riders, because of their particular spread of talents, it is nearly always their best tactical option never to take a pull. Unless the rider is an out and out big bunch sprinter, those kinds of riders are rarely in any way popular at all. And again that's just as rational from a fan's point of view as staying out of the wind at all costs is from the rider's point of view. It's not sour grapes or a double standard.

Gerrans is the archetypal example. I can absolutely understand why so many fans hate him. Personally I admire his wily ruthlessness, but I also don't like to see him win just because any race he wins will almost certainly have been very boring. As an aside, there is so much gloating about his screw up in the 2014 WCRR precisely because it's very rare that he's screws up like that. When he sits on, he's nearly always doing the tactically right thing.

 

[jaylew]

Agreed. Well said.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

I love wheelsuckers. They add a great element to the narrative, which is cycling's greatest strength.

Yeah they can sometimes be an interesting factor in races but imo cycling without wheelsucking actions like Gerrans in the WC 2014 the sport would be more interesting. I don't mean reasonable wheelsucking (you have a team mate in the group behind you, you aren't a good sprinter,...) which is just logical but generally I would prefer the sport without riders like Gerrans.
Again, I don't say its a stupid or a unfair tactic it just sometimes annoys me.

Well, that's a bit like saying you would prefer if every football team in the world would play attacking football no matter the opponent. Entertaining? Surely, but not very realistic.

I definitely understand and accept when riders sit on for tactical reasons (being outnumbered, having a team mate behind, leaving the work to the bigger favourites etc.) but what really pisses me off is when riders are overly cautious and are afraid to put their nose in the wind even though they are in a favourable position at the front.

I wrote the post as a reply to Hugo koblet who said that wheelsuckers are a great adition to the narrative of the sport which I just dont think so I wrote this very unrealistic comment how the sport would be without them.

And about your 2nd paragraph, thats actually exactly the same I meant with "reasonable wheelsucking is just logical" so I completely agree about that point.

 

[valentius borealis]

It can be amusing when a rider's only tactic is to wheelsuck a particular rival, who then has a teammate go ahead up the road and stay away to the finish.