Where do ASO go from here? Tour route 2018

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Re: Re:

hrotha said:
yaco said:
movingtarget said:
The obvious one is an increase in the TT kms and more MTFs. They will probably keep one short mountain stage. TTT seems to be out of fashion which is a good thing and probably go for a more traditional short prologue. Sometimes finishing on a descent can be exciting but if the finish is a long way from the top of the final climb it usually ends up as a stalemate and a waste of a stage for many fans.
You cant have long ITT's in today's environment when gaps on the mountains are marginal - Imagine if you have a 60km ITT in stage 2 or 3 ? You'd have 2 contenders left for the yellow jersey I've always proposed a TTT and an ITT to test the strength of teams - Something like a 20km TTT and 30km ITT ( but not a pancake flat course ).
Blah blah blah. Watch the 2015 Giro.
They actually race real mountains in the Giro when climbers can get back time - Why not have an 80km ITT in stage 3 and then'll you have only 2 contenders for the yellow jersey - Then wait for the whinging ?
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
hrotha said:
yaco said:
movingtarget said:
The obvious one is an increase in the TT kms and more MTFs. They will probably keep one short mountain stage. TTT seems to be out of fashion which is a good thing and probably go for a more traditional short prologue. Sometimes finishing on a descent can be exciting but if the finish is a long way from the top of the final climb it usually ends up as a stalemate and a waste of a stage for many fans.
You cant have long ITT's in today's environment when gaps on the mountains are marginal - Imagine if you have a 60km ITT in stage 2 or 3 ? You'd have 2 contenders left for the yellow jersey I've always proposed a TTT and an ITT to test the strength of teams - Something like a 20km TTT and 30km ITT ( but not a pancake flat course ).
Blah blah blah. Watch the 2015 Giro.
They actually race real mountains in the Giro when climbers can get back time - Why not have an 80km ITT in stage 3 and then'll you have only 2 contenders for the yellow jersey - Then wait for the whinging ?
They most certainly also do in the Tour. This year to a lesser extent admittedly. People just prefer to wait, and wait, and wait..
I don't ever think hrotha or anybody else suggested a 80 time trial on stage 3. Don't be childish.
 
People should stop saying the TTT makes sky weaker because they have to bring more guys who are weak climbers but good for a TTT. That simply is not the case if two of your best climbing domestiques are kwiat and Thomas. With such a team a a TTT is simply another huge advantage
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
Valv.Piti said:
Red Rick said:
That actually seems very good, apart from the TTT. I call fake news.
Im pretty sure that part is already 100% confirmed. You know what edition this years route reminds me of? So, many, similarities (assuming this is at least somewhat true).
Alp, Gap, Ardiden....

2003?
2017 I don't know.
The rumoured route is a perfect match to 2011 except for going to the Alps first.
 
Actually a good one (and a great race!), but 2014.

EDIT: 2003 actually also had a MTF on Ax-3, so thats the 3 biggest MTFs of the rumoured 2018 route. Thats a bit crazy. But 2014 was also Pyrenees - Alps, flat ITT on penultimate day, cobbles, first MTF in Vosges (Massif Central here) etc.
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
yaco said:
hrotha said:
yaco said:
movingtarget said:
The obvious one is an increase in the TT kms and more MTFs. They will probably keep one short mountain stage. TTT seems to be out of fashion which is a good thing and probably go for a more traditional short prologue. Sometimes finishing on a descent can be exciting but if the finish is a long way from the top of the final climb it usually ends up as a stalemate and a waste of a stage for many fans.
You cant have long ITT's in today's environment when gaps on the mountains are marginal - Imagine if you have a 60km ITT in stage 2 or 3 ? You'd have 2 contenders left for the yellow jersey I've always proposed a TTT and an ITT to test the strength of teams - Something like a 20km TTT and 30km ITT ( but not a pancake flat course ).
Blah blah blah. Watch the 2015 Giro.
They actually race real mountains in the Giro when climbers can get back time - Why not have an 80km ITT in stage 3 and then'll you have only 2 contenders for the yellow jersey - Then wait for the whinging ?
They most certainly also do in the Tour. This year to a lesser extent admittedly. People just prefer to wait, and wait, and wait..
I don't ever think hrotha or anybody else suggested a 80 time trial on stage 3. Don't be childish.
So posting Bah,blah,blah is not childish but posting about an 80km ITT which is often discussed is childish - I got ! The fact is racing is not like the 60's,70's 80's or even the 90's, when GC guys could lose 3 or 4 or minutes on a bad day and get this back on the next stage - GC contenders are evenly matched in the mountains so if you have too many ITT km's without a tough course ( like this year's Giro ) it will lead to a boring race.
 
We want at least 80 km of ITT, not a single 80-km ITT. And yes, "blah blah blah" was childish but strictly necessary. :)

The Giro was tough enough, they just miscalculated and assumed Dumoulin would crack on his own so they figured they didn't need to exploit the route to its fullest.
 
Re:

hrotha said:
We want at least 80 km of ITT, not a single 80-km ITT. And yes, "blah blah blah" was childish but strictly necessary. :)

The Giro was tough enough, they just miscalculated and assumed Dumoulin would crack on his own so they figured they didn't need to exploit the route to its fullest.
I doubt you could have a tougher Giro route - THE ITT and mountains were a good match.
 
Re:

Olanogiro said:
1. Fontenay SPRINT
2. La Roche Sur Yvon SPRINT
3. Cholet CRE
4. Sauzeau SPRINT
5. Pointe Du Raz CHEMINS Tro Bro Leon
6. Guerledan HILLY (Mur de Bretagne)
7. Le Mans SPRINT
8. Montlucon SPRINT
9. Col du Beal MTF

repos

10. Romans Sur Isere SPRINT
11. Alpe D'Huez MTF (Ornon-Sarenne-descent per Reculas-Alpe Huez)
12. Bourg Oisans-Sestriere MTF (Lautaret-Montgenevre-Finestre-Sestriere)
13. Sestriere-Gap HILLY
14. Nimes SPRINT
15. Mende HILLY

Repos

16. AX3 MTF (Garavel-Pailheres-AX3)
17. Argeles Gazost (Aspin/Ancizan-TOurmalet-Viscos)
18. Pau-Couradouque (MB, Aubisque, Couradouque)
19. Burdeos SPRINT
20. CRI Burdeos
21. Paris SPRINT

Lire la suite / Read more: http://www.velowire.com/article/1001/fr/les-details-du-grand-depart-du-tour-de-france-2018-dans-le-departement-de-la-vendee.html#ixzz4nkTJHl6N
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I'm afraid this is rather wishful thinking.
According to the mayor of Bordeaux, the TdF won't visit his town in 2018: https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/societe/le-tour-de-france-bordeaux-pas-pour-2018-selon-la-mairie-1500811479
Furthermore, the department of the Ain (that's where the Grand Colombier and Biche are) has a contract for finish/startlocations for three consecutive years (2016: Culoz, 2017: Nantua, 2018: ???) I don't see any stage town in the Ain in Olanogiro's design.

The only thing we know for sure is the design of the first 3.5 stages. Following that it's likely going to Britanny (rumours about a finish on the Mur de Bretagne - how imaginative, and a stage with dirt roads).
After that, rumours are quite divergent: it's either going east to have a finish on or around Col de Béal on the second Sunday (stage 9), or it's going north to have a stage to Compiègne (site of the signing of the armistice in 1918) on july 14 and a cobbled stage the day after (but cobbles are also rumoured for 2019, after the Grand Départ from Brussels).
 
My thoughts:

- I don't mind more TT kilometers as long as they include more MTT.
- Descents are fun to watch but they are too dangerous and in today's racing they don't make a difference if not for the accidents. So reduce them, at least at the ending of the stages.
- I know sprints are a necessary evil, but reduce them. We don't need that many. More classic type stages would be fun.

And please ASO, don't try to cater to anyone because it will come back to haunt them. People get confuse about the amount of ITT. They probably won't come back any time soon. And that has nothing to do with the Frenchman, but with today's racing. In the past the high amount of ITT used to kill the racing from early on. With today's market and more countries and people watching that's not going to cut it. So no, I don't think putting too many of them is a good idea.

1- Too many: 1 prologue, and 2 ITT >50 kms.
2- OK or acceptable: 1 Prologue, 1 ITT > 40- 55 kms.
3- Too little: 1 Prologue, 1 ITT <40 kms.

Do not count the TTT because depends on the power of the team. Even though that could be a killer in some years.
 
Add 2 or 3 classic type stages instead of the pan flat ones (hilly or cobbles). At least one flat stage in an open area or around the coast. Some flat stages with some 3rd categories in the middle, to make it more difficult for sprinter teams which cards to play.

Add a 50 km TT with 2 hills in it so the frenchies won't get hurt too much.
 
Re:

Ikbengodniet said:
Add 2 or 3 classic type stages instead of the pan flat ones (hilly or cobbles). At least one flat stage in an open area or around the coast. Some flat stages with some 3rd categories in the middle, to make it more difficult for sprinter teams which cards to play.

Add a 50 km TT with 2 hills in it so the frenchies won't get hurt too much.
That would make the difference worse IMHO.
Because these are power climbs!
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
Ikbengodniet said:
Add 2 or 3 classic type stages instead of the pan flat ones (hilly or cobbles). At least one flat stage in an open area or around the coast. Some flat stages with some 3rd categories in the middle, to make it more difficult for sprinter teams which cards to play.

Add a 50 km TT with 2 hills in it so the frenchies won't get hurt too much.
That would make the difference worse IMHO.
Because these are power climbs!
You can design something like the 2nd TT of last year with a longer descent. I think the difference would be smaller. Bardet came 5th in that one.
 
Gigs_98 said:
People should stop saying the TTT makes sky weaker because they have to bring more guys who are weak climbers but good for a TTT. That simply is not the case if two of your best climbing domestiques are kwiat and Thomas. With such a team a a TTT is simply another huge advantage
I agree, my friend, and there has already been some chatter
about Team SKY wanting to take a serious run at the TTT in
2019 when the Road Worlds are in Yorkshire.

By 2019 Team SKY might have a Castelli 6.0 Body Paint Speed
Suit that could win an ITT or TTT by itself! :surprised:
 
I agree with more medium mountain stages and more classics type of stages. And a Tro-Bro Léon like stage. Also I would love to see a tough classics stage ala Liège-Bastogne-Liège, the one they recently rode in Giro della Valle d'Aosta or the Tirreno-Adriatico stage they rode in 2013 to Porto Sant'Elpidio as the penultimate stage of the Tour.
 
Sep 15, 2012
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myrideissteelerthanyours said:
Change very little and see how 8 man teams effects the overall dynamic.
Well that would be a repeat of this year then (Sky sans Thomas)? I would like to see the end of sprint stages, or at least the end of ones where the breakaway is only there for the TV exposure to the OAPs watching all day, like me. Just keep making the initial 100 kms very hilly and then finish of 50 kms to allow a solo effort to time trial to a win.
 
- Sprint stages should be more challenging, with some mountain passes to make the sprinters truly earn them
- More medium mountain stages
- More Mountain stages - not necessarily more MTF but a good mix of both.
- hopefully the 8 men per team rule will improve dynamics, otherwise go automatically to 7.
- More ITT - not necessarily flat, but some good pair of 35 K plus ITT - perhaps a MITT- can work wonders.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
movingtarget said:
The obvious one is an increase in the TT kms and more MTFs. They will probably keep one short mountain stage. TTT seems to be out of fashion which is a good thing and probably go for a more traditional short prologue. Sometimes finishing on a descent can be exciting but if the finish is a long way from the top of the final climb it usually ends up as a stalemate and a waste of a stage for many fans.
You cant have long ITT's in today's environment when gaps on the mountains are marginal - Imagine if you have a 60km ITT in stage 2 or 3 ? You'd have 2 contenders left for the yellow jersey I've always proposed a TTT and an ITT to test the strength of teams - Something like a 20km TTT and 30km ITT ( but not a pancake flat course ).
I didn't say long TTs I said an increase in the TT length. 40 kms used to be standard anyway not long ago. The first TT in this race was more like a long prologue than a TT. A short TTT is even worse as the time gaps are so small, what's the point ? But if they do have a flat TTT then they have to have a rolling or hilly ITT and maybe a short prologue. The good thing about the short prologue is that GC contenders are not usually in the running for the yellow jersey something the weaker teams would prefer not to have in the first week. A 60 km TT would never happen these days. I think 40 kms is okay as long as the other one is much shorter. TT length still won't help Bardet as he has to gain good time in the mountains on Froome before the last TT and then ride a decent final TT. He can't seem to do either at the moment and it remains to be seen how much he can improve. With Porte, Valverde and Quintana out of the picture and a Froome below his usual level Bardet had a great opportunity this year but couldn't take it and next year it will get even harder for him.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
yaco said:
movingtarget said:
The obvious one is an increase in the TT kms and more MTFs. They will probably keep one short mountain stage. TTT seems to be out of fashion which is a good thing and probably go for a more traditional short prologue. Sometimes finishing on a descent can be exciting but if the finish is a long way from the top of the final climb it usually ends up as a stalemate and a waste of a stage for many fans.
You cant have long ITT's in today's environment when gaps on the mountains are marginal - Imagine if you have a 60km ITT in stage 2 or 3 ? You'd have 2 contenders left for the yellow jersey I've always proposed a TTT and an ITT to test the strength of teams - Something like a 20km TTT and 30km ITT ( but not a pancake flat course ).
I didn't say long TTs I said an increase in the TT length. 40 kms used to be standard anyway not long ago. The first TT in this race was more like a long prologue than a TT. A short TTT is even worse as the time gaps are so small, what's the point ? But if they do have a flat TTT then they have to have a rolling or hilly ITT and maybe a short prologue. The good thing about the short prologue is that GC contenders are not usually in the running for the yellow jersey something the weaker teams would prefer not to have in the first week. A 60 km TT would never happen these days. I think 40 kms is okay as long as the other one is much shorter. TT length still won't help Bardet as he has to gain good time in the mountains on Froome before the last TT and then ride a decent final TT. He can't seem to do either at the moment and it remains to be seen how much he can improve. With Porte, Valverde and Quintana out of the picture and a Froome below his usual level Bardet had a great opportunity this year but couldn't take it and next year it will get even harder for him.
My post should have referred to total ITT km's - I always like the idea of a TTT and an ITT - TTT could be flat around 25 kms and a hilly ITT of around 15 km but 5 km should be full on hilly. This combined with 8 rider teams means teams will need to be more selective with their choice of riders.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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TTTs end up punishing GC riders on small teams way more than the likes of Sky, who have several strong climbers who can TT as well as strong roleurs.
 

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