Which team was the biggest fail in stage 9?

[Cimber]

Yes, giving Kreuziger who was as strong as Valverde on stage 8 a few minutes would have been an excellent idea. Glad you are not in the car for Movistar's sake.

So say you are DS of movistar would you rather be going into the TTs and the Alpes 2 mins behind Roman "always has a big offday" Kreuziger or Chris "extraterrestrial" Froome?

They all need to stop caring about anything but the overall victory. Screw 2nd and 3rd. But as OPQS DS says: "they are riding for 2nd"

Edit: had Quintana been up the road with Costa against say, Rogers, I doubt that saxo would have given them a few minutes

They definately would have since they (especially Contador) dont really care about anything but the win, so would would have played it cool and let Froome work.

 

[roundabout]

Your premise is faulty. So no point in discussing this with you.

But ok, consider this, there is no guarantee that Froome would have blown himself up for the same reason that you are using. He would have simply waited for Porte and co. Lost 3 minutes in the process. Lost a few minutes from there chugging on until the Ancizan and it would have been Froome still ahead of Valverde and Kreuziger now too far away.

Really useful from Movistar's perspective.

 

[Cimber]

Your premise is faulty. So no point in discussing this with you.

But ok, consider this, there is no guarantee that Froome would have blown himself up for the same reason that you are using. He would have simply waited for Porte and co. Lost 3 minutes in the process. Lost a few minutes from there chugging on until the Ancizan and it would have been Froome still ahead of Valverde and Kreuziger now too far away.

Really useful from Movistar's perspective.

I am pretty sure Froome would never allow Kreuziger to get "to far" away. But its a risk that needs to be taken if you really wanna win. Doesnt matter if you get 2nd 4th or 5th. You need to stop caring about everything but the win and then take the associated risks. Froome is the strongest rider out there and its way to conservative to just hope that he will have an offday. When you got him isolated you just gotta risk it all, even if there is a chance that you lose in the end.

My overall point is this: In order to win vs. a stronger rider you need to take tactical risks. I just dont wanna see what we aw in the Armstrong era where everyone just rode for 2nd.

 

[roundabout]

Ah, so now Kreuziger should not be allowed to get too far away.

2 posts ago it was Roman who always has a big off day.

Says it all.

 

[Cimber]

Ah, so now Kreuziger should not be allowed to get too far away.

2 posts ago it was Roman who always has a big off day.

Says it all.

The one doesnt exclude the other. Unless they give him really A LOT of time he wont get to far away (cos of bad days). But Costa on the other hand... why wasnt it good enough to have Costa up the road? He less than 1 min after Kreuziger in the GC and in TdS he showed that he is better than Kreuziger (both in the TT and on the climbs - he only lost time on the descent cos of Scarponi's crash IIrc).

Would be a perfect situation for both teams to have their lieutenants up in the break.

Again, you need to take the risks if you wanna win. If you are satisfied with 2nd or 3rd its another story of course.

 

[roundabout]

Taking 40+ seconds in a short climb despite babysitting Contador would be a more relevant performance, no?

 

[Cimber]

Taking 40+ seconds in a short climb despite babysitting Contador would be a more relevant performance, no?

That was one stage, and we all know how inconsitent Kreuziger can be, so it is weird to be afraid of Kreuziger vs. Costa based on one stage, espcially considering the tactical advantage of that move putting a lot of pressure on Froome. Also Cosa should be able to take a lot of time on Kreuziger in the TTs (saying should as nothing is certain in cycling). Again, rather be 1 min after Kreuziger with Costa inlcuding a tacital advantage over Froome than 1,25 after the superhuman Froome with no tactical advantage.

And even if they Costa wouldnt be able to catch Kreuziger in the GC would Costa on 2nd be worse than Valverde on 2nd (which they are actually seem to be riding for).

Again, you need to accept and live with the risks if you wanna ride for the win and not go "of noes Kreuziger is slightly ahead of Costa in the GC, we better pull Froome up to them". Show som cojones and take the necessary risks associated with trying to challenge a stronger rider for the win, especially when you got him isolated like that and your have 3 riders who are well up in the GC who you can use to attack him and put pressure on him.

Summarized conclusion: Take some risks and try to win

 

[shades1]

i only managed to catch very limited coverage yesterday due to a chaotic weekend , can someone please tell me what happened to SKY , how did they manage to lose the whole train so early and never recover ?

 

[Cimber]

i only managed to catch very limited coverage yesterday due to a chaotic weekend , can someone please tell me what happened to SKY , how did they manage to lose the whole train so early and never recover ?

Well Saxo and Movi tried to get a rider in each of the breaks that went off. Sky didnt want that so they chased down every break, but apparently they overrated themselves (especially after the performance on AX3) and they imploded.

As Riis said after the stage: "Sky tried to play supermen, and they payed the price for it".

 

[roundabout]

Lol.

It's funny reading you squirm and twist into a pretzel wanting Movistar to ride for the benefit of conatdor and saxo bank.

Poor inconsistent Kreuziger. 1 bad day and now he is a worse bet than Costa who is unproven in GTs. Kreuziger apart from that day over Giau would finish top-15 at worst (!) on mountain stages in GTs. Costa?

I wrote it before, but you seem to be ignoring it. What's the gain for Movistar? Why is losing to Kreuziger better than losing to Froome? Apart from your team allegiances?

What makes you think that Froome doesn't wait for Porte and co and loses 5-6 minutes, but stays ahead of contador etc?

And please, enough with the risks already. Yes they didn't risk, but you should alos look at your favorite team. Done nada for the last 100k. Must be the evil Movistar that blocked them from doing anything at all.

 

[del1962]

i only managed to catch very limited coverage yesterday due to a chaotic weekend , can someone please tell me what happened to SKY , how did they manage to lose the whole train so early and never recover ?

A mixture of attacks, some riders not strong enough and the mishap to Kennaugh.

I think they would have been better allowing Dan Martin in the break though and covering Saxo/Movistar GC riders in breaks.

 

[meat puppet]

movi and saxo seem to be both benefiting and suffering from the leader double-trouble. if AC and AV are the true leaders, then surely sending quintana and kreuziger up the road on the penultimate climb would be the move to make. froome would be forced to chase.

if he could not make the catch, good. if cooked, then leaders could attack. if not, at least they net slow burning froome in a more intense manner than just riding tempo

but, and luckily so, both teams seem eager to keep their options open.

belkin were the biggest winners. happy for them.

 

[Cimber]

Lol.

It's funny reading you squirm and twist into a pretzel wanting Movistar to ride for the benefit of conatdor and saxo bank.

Poor inconsistent Kreuziger. 1 bad day and now he is a worse bet than Costa who is unproven in GTs. Kreuziger apart from that day over Giau would finish top-15 at worst (!) on mountain stages in GTs. Costa?

I wrote it before, but you seem to be ignoring it. What's the gain for Movistar? Why is losing to Kreuziger better than losing to Froome? Apart from your team allegiances?.

Interesting how you get personal in discussions, but I wil ignore that.

Firstly, I would be almost just as happy to see Quintana, Valverde, Schleck JRod and Cadel winning as Contador. Would also be happy to see Costa or Kreuziger win So its not really team allegiance, at all

I would be fuming just as much if Saxo or Katusha would pull Froome up to Costa/Valverde/Quintana.

I want the other teams to share the same goal: wining. Instead of playing second fiddle and fight for 2nd.

What makes you think that Froome doesn't wait for Porte and co and loses 5-6 minutes, but stays ahead of contador etc?

I wouldnt mind that . Then we would have some interesting ridings up front in the GT. Would add spice to the race and put some pressure on Sky for the rest of the race (since both Movistar, Saxo and a few otehr teams wouldhvae strong riders ahead of Froome)

And please, enough with the risks already. Yes they didn't risk, but you should alos look at your favorite team. Done nada for the last 100k. Must be the evil Movistar that blocked them from doing anything at all.

Actuallt that is exactly what Holm suggest, i.e. that Movistar would chase down Contador if he attacked. But Kreuziger did try to attack on the last climb (or on the descent) IIrc. But really I dont consider Movistar evil. I root for them! I was on the edge of the coach cheering for Quintana on the AX3-stage, but in my honest opinion, they just didnt take advantage of the situation yesterday.

Saxo isnt my favorite team as such, am just a big fan of Contador. Movistar is probably more "my team" since there there are more rider on that team that I root for (often I just know more about Saxo since they get more media coverage in my country and I dont speak Spanish). But I want them to ride foer the win, and not conservatively for 2nd.

Furthermore, I am also unhappy that Contador didnt try more than he did (Kreuziger did attack twice though - once in the valley and once towards the end).

But the reason I voted for Movistar in the poll was cos Valverde and a helper pulled Froome up to the front group. That was just stupid and counter productive if you wanna win the race.

And no "no enough with the risk already". Taking risks and showing cojones will be key in this Tour if any one wanna take the yellow of Froome.

You seem to misunderstand my paradigm for the discussion. You seem to think I argue from a Saxo perspective. But I am not. My perspective is I want a great and interesting race and the end just about any one but Froome to win.

 

[wwabbit]

i only managed to catch very limited coverage yesterday due to a chaotic weekend , can someone please tell me what happened to SKY , how did they manage to lose the whole train so early and never recover ?

Perfect storm of events, I would say. Combination of the incredibly aggressive riding especially by other teams, Sky trying to cover too many attacks, and some Sky riders under-performing. I thought it was all still well under control though, but Kennaugh getting knocked over tipped the scale.

 

[roundabout]

No, it's not me getting personal. It's you trying to use every possible justification why a move with Kreuziger would be so great for them.

And those justification are, frankly, based on nothing, so I am genuinely curious why you are using them.

Again, for the nth time, it makes sense for Movistar that sending Costa with Kreuziger would not win them the race.

So, no. There's a contradiction between that and all your posts about taking risks, aiming to win, et cetera, et cetera.

And you certainly are unable to see things from the Movistar perspective, or any other teams judging bu your arguments.

 

[Arnout]

Qu

Andrey Amador just tweeted that it was a super hard stage, but Movistar achieved their objectives, and "they wanted a spectacle, they got one today!" which means, I guess, that if Movistar really did achieve their objectives for the day then either
a) the pre-stage objectives were met, but the plan wasn't flexible enough to adjust to the situation
b) Movistar weren't quite as ambitious in their objectives from the stage as fans might have hoped

I deliberately missed the stage yesterday, but after I got word from the early attacks et al I decided to rewatch the entire stage at a later time (staying away from results). I think Movistar's objectives were to isolate Froome. Right now, they have 2 (or 3, including Costa) guys close to the front, Froome cannot play that game anymore. In a stage where the last 30k was a shallow descent, probably that was more than they had expected beforehand.

But yes, the last 60k was a disappointment, I skipped large parts of it. Apart from the little attacks from Quintana nothing really happened. I guess you are right that they were not flexible enough. Quintana looked stronger than the little attacks he put in, but more importantly, Valverde should've tried something just when Froome caught up with Quintana.

 

[Cimber]

No, it's not me getting personal. It's you trying to use every possible justification why a move with Kreuziger would be so great for them..

No I am not saying Kreuziger up there is great for Movistar per say. What I am saying that Costa + a handful of other second line GC riders (but close in the GC) up there while Froome is alone a good situation from Movistar's point of view (for Saxos point of view it would be Kreuziger + + a handful of other second line GC riders).

You just seem to argue that they needed to close the gap cos Kreuziger is a threat to Movistar. I am just saying that Costa is at least as dangerous as Kreuziger why they should be quite satisfied with the situation.

I liked the attack of Valverde on the flat. It was nice. But as soon as Froome was on his wheel they should have stopped (and maybe countered with Quintana).

And those justification are, frankly, based on nothing, so I am genuinely curious why you are using them.

My justification is that Saxo + Movistar was basically in an equally good position (with Costa and Kreuziger up the road) which would make Froome have to work, and if he decided to wait on Porte and rest of the shatted Sky team they would likely implode further on the later clibs (which they actuelly did anyway when Porte try to bridge)

Again, for the nth time, it makes sense for Movistar that sending Costa with Kreuziger would not win them the race.

So, no. There's a contradiction between that and all your continued posts about taking risks, aiming to win, et cetera, et cetera.

We simply disagree on that premise.

Well in theory if Kreuziger, Costa and the otehr second in line GCers got, lets say 10 mins to be extreme, that would mean they had a bigger chance to win than against Froome.

But them getting 10mins want gonna happen, however, they would force Froome to either work alone onthe next climb or make him blow his team even further and then work on the last climb himself.

Of course there is nothing wrong with Valverde and Quintana trying to bridge up to the Costa group, but if Froome responds to Valverde attacking then he should stop and Quintana could counter. But they shouldnt never ever bridge Froome up to that group (if they want to win the race)

The point: that situation with Costa, Kreuziger etc up the road would have putten so much more pressure on Froome and Sky, and ideally opened up for later and more successful attacks by Quintana, Valverde and Contador.

 

[The Hitch]

I deliberately missed the stage yesterday, but after I got word from the early attacks et al I decided to rewatch the entire stage at a later time (staying away from results). I think Movistar's objectives were to isolate Froome. Right now, they have 2 (or 3, including Costa) guys close to the front, Froome cannot play that game anymore.beforehand.

Frooome was never going to play that game anyway. Porte is going to stay with Froome and work for him irrespective of whether he is 30 seconds down on gc or 30 minutes down on gc

Movistar also showed yesterday that they would rather Valverde got a podium than Quintana won, so having 2 or 3 guys near the front of gc doesn't mean much anyway.

Theyll never get that opportunity again anyway. Next time Movistar send someone up the road it will be exactly like what happened 2 days ago. Sky will chase them down and they will be too tired to do anything on the final climb.

 

[cineteq]

The results on this poll show we have a massive July-only voters.

 

[blaxland]

cant believe Movistar wasted this oppertunity to hammer the Sky/froome coffin shut but instead decided that 2nd pace will be good enough for Valverde and his super Palmares"when this tour is done and dusted i think Movistar may rue their lost chance?

 

[Escarabajo]

movi and saxo seem to be both benefiting and suffering from the leader double-trouble. if AC and AV are the true leaders, then surely sending quintana and kreuziger up the road on the penultimate climb would be the move to make. froome would be forced to chase.

if he could not make the catch, good. if cooked, then leaders could attack. if not, at least they net slow burning froome in a more intense manner than just riding tempo

but, and luckily so, both teams seem eager to keep their options open.

belkin were the biggest winners. happy for them.

The idea is perfect. But I don't think it happened for the mere reason that AC and AV were not feeling as good and an attack by Quintana and Kreuziger would have most likely drop them without dropping Froome. I don't think that Movistar and Saxo are ready to give up their cards with AC and AV. They rather wait longer to see what happens.

At the end of the race we can say it was a miss opportunity but at the moment it was their best option to fit their interests.

 

[RiccoDinko]

This is stupid, it was clearly TEAM SKY who was failing.

 

[Jan the Man]

The real answer is nobody rode the perfect race but nobody were 'retards'.

Sky - Porte had a bad day, Thomas is injured, Kennaugh fell and the rest appear to be unable to climb with the best. Froome on the otherhand is super strong.

Movistar - They did very well to initially isolate Froome and then ride so as to prevent a regrouping by Porte. However they missed an opportunity on the final climb, probably because Valverde was too weak to attack after Quintana tested the water.

Saxo- Similarly they committed to keeping the group away from Froome but I suspect AC is not in the best shape as otherwise they would have tried something on the final climb.

In all Saxo and Movistar both missed opportunities and Sky had a bad day,

 

[Dutchsmurf]

The idea is perfect. But I don't think it happened for the mere reason that AC and AV were not feeling as good and an attack by Quintana and Kreuziger would have most likely drop them without dropping Froome. I don't think that Movistar and Saxo are ready to give up their cards with AC and AV. They rather wait longer to see what happens.

At the end of the race we can say it was a miss opportunity but at the moment it was their best option to fit their interests.

The problem is that they didn't even try. They could have attacked with Kreuziger and Quintana, force Froome to react and then just stop working when Froome catches them. Rogers, Costa and the rest of the helpers could just bring Valverde and Contador back to the front if they indeed couldn't follow. What was Froome going to do? Attack on his own with 60km still to go? Now they wasted a lot of energy and didn't got any closer to winning.

However, if we look at it from the point of view from Movistar, their actions do make sense. Judging from how they ride, they just forgot about Froome after Saturday. They know he is the strongest and they know he will win, so they ride for second. Who is the biggest treat for second place? It probably was Porte and he is eliminated now. So goal of the stage achieved I would say. At one point they were close to eliminating Contador and the Belkin riders too and Contador needed his complete team to fix that situation.

 

[mopar769]

The results on this poll show we have a massive July-only voters.

You mean to tell me this forum exists year round?

All the riders interviewed, stated that Froome showed no weakness, and I believe they were being honest. So why sacrifice your GC position on a failed attack in the first week?

It's easy to sit in front of the TV and say "Attack, Attack!" But if you are sitting in the saddle of the 4th climb, in a dwindling and very elite group of 10 or so, I'm not so sure those are the first words crossing your mind...even if they are being screamed into your ear!