Who deserves the Vélo d'Or the most so far?

[Mr.White]

Re:

Are we really arguing that green jersey > 3rd place? I don't agree with that at all.

However, no question that Sagan's TdF was far more impressive than Quintana's due to how he won the jersey and that he picked up 3 stage wins. But as a standalone, would you seriously rather win the green jersey than podium Le Tour?

Fully agree.
Sagan was way better than Quintana of course. In fact he was second best rider of the Tour, just behind Froome. But then again, he won that same green jersey last year, and his performance then was no match for Valverde's. So in my opinion green jersey, without stage wins, is not much of a feat. But green jersey backed with couple of stages (more the better) can be better than podium place. Of course it also depends on the particular ride of podium place finisher

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

That's because Froome is a crappy one-day racer and never had a chance to win gold in the road race. He simply doesn't have what it takes to be a classics specialist: a Nibali or Valverde he is not. The time trial field at the Olympics was much stronger than in the Vuelta and that's why he only managed to get bronze there (would've been fourth if Dennis didn't have that mechanical).

Yes the Olympic TT field was much more stacked than the Vuelta, however you can put a direct form line to it by the performance of Castroviejo. Froome only beat him by 4 seconds over 54k In Rio, yet beat him by 44s over just 37k at the Vuelta. It's not unreasonable to think he'd have finished 60-70s clear of him in Rio on that form, so I think its fair to say had he been in Vuelta TT form at Rio he'd have been very close to gold. But of course then holding that form would surely have been nearly impossible going into the Vuelta and he'd have faded badly and maybe only finished 4th on GC.

It depends what is better in terms of a Tour-Olympics-Vuelta achievement, a 1st-gold-4th or a 1st-bronze-2nd.

That also has to be taken into the context of a standalone TT vs a stage race TT, where recovery plays a bigger part. Froome is a stage racer where recovery is essential, and therefore should do better in a TT - comparatively at least - towards the end of a GT. Castroviejo may well have focused his season around the Olympics TT as well. It's just as likely that Castroviejo had better form at Rio and had tailed off in the Vuelta.

Well, I know Castroviejo had a lot of work to do for Quintana, but come on. TTs in stage races work against the GC guys because while Froome was busy burning all his matches on the climbs against Quintana and co, Castroviejo could take it relatively easy

So you think Contador could have challenged for the WCTT gold in 2009?

 

[Nick C.]

Re:

There was a time when the Vuelta didn't even have summit finishes. How far things have gone since...

How much of that is because it used to be held in April.

 

[Nick C.]

Which would be greater 4th in the Tour or the Green jersey? Third and Green jersey both get to stand on the podium in Paris for their moment of glory, so that can't be the determining factor.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

I'd rate Sagan very high just like Froome's season as well.

I rate the podium in the Tour higher than the points classification, IMHO. Podium is very hard to get whether you like or not the rider.

I am GT oriented, so I could be bias, but I remember the podiums from the riders at the Tour. Not all but many until the 80's.

You think winning the green jersey isn't hard? One bad sprint can ruin your chances. Did you not see Sagan go into breakaways on mountainous stages just to win the intermediate sprint (and to help Majka win a stage/polkadots jersey). You're basically saying Quintana did better than Sagan at this year's Tour.

In this case Sagan, because of the way he won it. And also we already were excited about the way he was riding during the year. Quintana wasn't lighting up in the mountains either.

However, maybe we should ask any of the Green Jersey winners (don't pay attentions to the stages) if they prefer to keep the Green Jersey over Podium?

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Are we really arguing that green jersey > 3rd place? I don't agree with that at all.

However, no question that Sagan's TdF was far more impressive than Quintana's due to how he won the jersey and that he picked up 3 stage wins. But as a standalone, would you seriously rather win the green jersey than podium Le Tour?

A man makes the jersey. A man makes the greatness of his results.

Everything Sagan did, he did it as world champion and with a target on his back. He won the green jersey despite having everything and everyone against him and trying to make him not win it. We know how cycling can be cruel, and how the strongest cyclists have a lot of trouble turning their strength into results when they are the overwhelming favorites and marked by the whole peloton. Fabian was defeated countless times because of it. Same for Tom.

Compare that to pretty much every single GVA win during the last few years, where he was allowed to "go" (see his win, this tour, for example), where he was allowed to "wheelsuck"and so on. Sagan's only option to win the RVV was to be the absolutely strongest, most astute rider and blow everybody off his wheel. No one was going to let him go. Same for pretty much everyone of his big wins. Frankly I don't remember a single GVA win where that was the case. He was always allowed to go.

Sagan did this at GW, RVV, some stages in June, every single one of his Tour stage wins, his Green Jersey, His european title, and his last World's win. The same results from a rider without that pressure don't hold the same value.

However, this logic can't be applied to GT's GC, especially when you have a strong team: You can be a beast in a classic, and not finish in the top20. If you are a GC beast, you are pretty much guaranteed a top 10 or top placing.

All of this is why Sagan is by far the one that deserves the Velo d'Ór the most.

Did you watch the olympic road race? Majka was going to survive until GVA attacked. Yes, he didn't pull as much as Jakob but that's because it was tactically astute not to. GVA is a great rider, not Sagan level, but nobody is.

 

[Durden93]

Re:

Which would be greater 4th in the Tour or the Green jersey? Third and Green jersey both get to stand on the podium in Paris for their moment of glory, so that can't be the determining factor.

You can't compare across years. Fourth in GC this year would have been good enough for a podium most years.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

That's because Froome is a crappy one-day racer and never had a chance to win gold in the road race. He simply doesn't have what it takes to be a classics specialist: a Nibali or Valverde he is not. The time trial field at the Olympics was much stronger than in the Vuelta and that's why he only managed to get bronze there (would've been fourth if Dennis didn't have that mechanical).

Yes the Olympic TT field was much more stacked than the Vuelta, however you can put a direct form line to it by the performance of Castroviejo. Froome only beat him by 4 seconds over 54k In Rio, yet beat him by 44s over just 37k at the Vuelta. It's not unreasonable to think he'd have finished 60-70s clear of him in Rio on that form, so I think its fair to say had he been in Vuelta TT form at Rio he'd have been very close to gold. But of course then holding that form would surely have been nearly impossible going into the Vuelta and he'd have faded badly and maybe only finished 4th on GC.

It depends what is better in terms of a Tour-Olympics-Vuelta achievement, a 1st-gold-4th or a 1st-bronze-2nd.

You can't compare a one-day time trial with a GT time trial, recovery plays a key role in the latter. When has Froome ever done anything impressive in a one-day race? Didn't he give up this year at Liège-Bastogne-Liège? He won a stage in Romandie, so his form can't have been that bad.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Are we really arguing that green jersey > 3rd place? I don't agree with that at all.

However, no question that Sagan's TdF was far more impressive than Quintana's due to how he won the jersey and that he picked up 3 stage wins. But as a standalone, would you seriously rather win the green jersey than podium Le Tour?

Yes, because if you win the green jersey you're statistically more likely to win Tour stages than someone who's best result at the Tour is a third place. It takes a better rider to win the green jersey than to place third in the Tour.

 

[Monte]

Best rider this year is Sagan, end of story. Froome is closest cause of TDF win. Nr 3 is open for debate.

 

[Echoes]

Re: Re:

Did you watch the olympic road race? Majka was going to survive until GVA attacked. Yes, he didn't pull as much as Jakob but that's because it was tactically astute not to. GVA is a great rider, not Sagan level, but nobody is.

I beg your pardon?

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Did you watch the olympic road race? Majka was going to survive until GVA attacked. Yes, he didn't pull as much as Jakob but that's because it was tactically astute not to. GVA is a great rider, not Sagan level, but nobody is.

I beg your pardon?

He didn't. You are welcome to actually measure the length of their pulls.

 

[MacBAir]

Re: Re:

Did you watch the olympic road race? Majka was going to survive until GVA attacked. Yes, he didn't pull as much as Jakob but that's because it was tactically astute not to. GVA is a great rider, not Sagan level, but nobody is.

I beg your pardon?

GVA never won any race like Sagan's WRR win or RVV win. Deal with it. He only wins when not the biggest favorite and the others give him some "margin" that no one gives Peter.

That's fine, but it is also the reason why Peter is the guy.

He also won the ORR because of what happened ahead of him, because the peloton let him go, and because Jakob would be happy with Silver. Not because he was the favorite, in control, and blew everybody off his wheel. In fact, he never won any major race like that.

I'm only pointing this because of your blind fanboyism and pathetic hatred for a much better cyclist, like Peter.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

Did you watch the olympic road race? Majka was going to survive until GVA attacked. Yes, he didn't pull as much as Jakob but that's because it was tactically astute not to. GVA is a great rider, not Sagan level, but nobody is.

I beg your pardon?

GVA never won any race like Sagan's WRR win or RVV win. Deal with it. He only wins when not the biggest favorite and the others give him some "margin" that no one gives Peter.


That's fine, but it is also the reason why Peter is the guy.

He also won the ORR because of what happened ahead of him, because the peloton let him go, and because Jakob would be happy with Silver. Not because he was the favorite, in control, and blew everybody off his wheel. In fact, he never won any major race like that.

I'm only pointing this because of your blind fanboyism and pathetic hatred for a much better cyclist, like Peter.

Lol what? I'm a huge Sagan fan and I think he's the most talented rider in the peloton. I just get tired of the GVA bashing is all. As far as the peloton letting GVA go I'm not sure how many guys had the legs to go with him. There were only about 8km left at the end of a very tough race and like I said there was no cohesion in that group to pull back Majka so why would there be some to pull back GVA and Jakob? There was no reason for anyone to believe they would pull the duo back so I just think it was a lack of legs.

 

[El Pistolero]

Sagan might be a better cyclist than GVA, but I don't think he could've done what GVA did at the Olympics (unless he focuses on it and loses weight of course). Give credit where credit is due.

 

[yaco]

Let's face facts - Van Avermaat rode a terrific race but won because Nibali and Henao fell on the last descent, leaving Majka to ride alone for the last 8kms, then Fugalsang attacked from the second group of 5 in which Van Avermaat latched on - No crash and Van Avermaat finishes 4th at best - He was nowhere near the best and strongest rider in the OLympics RR - That's the nature of the sport - The best or strongest doesn't always win.

 

[trucido]

Re:

Let's face facts - Van Avermaat rode a terrific race but won because Nibali and Henao fell on the last descent, leaving Majka to ride alone for the last 8kms, then Fugalsang attacked from the second group of 5 in which Van Avermaat latched on - No crash and Van Avermaat finishes 4th at best - He was nowhere near the best and strongest rider in the OLympics RR - That's the nature of the sport - The best or strongest doesn't always win.

Which is why I'd like to see a big race where everyone is riding against GvA, to see how he would handle it.

Of course we'll never see that if Sagan is in the same race.

 

[Echoes]

Nibali did not have bad luck, he took unnecessary risks and crashed by his own mistake. He can only blame himself. And Henao was inattentive behind. Well okay, you might claim Henao was unlucky but definitely not Nibali.

Hope this helps.

 

[Netserk]

Nibali did not have bad luck, he took unnecessary risks and crashed by his own mistake. He can only blame himself. And Henao was inattentive behind. Well okay, you might claim Henao was unlucky but definitely not Nibali.

Hope this helps.

Did you see him crash?

 

[Miburo]

Re:

Sagan might be a better cyclist than GVA, but I don't think he could've done what GVA did at the Olympics (unless he focuses on it and loses weight of course). Give credit where credit is due.

Of course he's better than GVA. GVA is only doing this for like a year, Sagan has been doing it for years and he's way younger and has already won way more

 

[Durden93]

Re:

Sagan might be a better cyclist than GVA, but I don't think he could've done what GVA did at the Olympics (unless he focuses on it and loses weight of course). Give credit where credit is due.

Thank you Changing course, is Nibali a contender for top 3 if he wins Il Lombardia?

 

[El Pistolero]

Nibali did not have bad luck, he took unnecessary risks and crashed by his own mistake. He can only blame himself. And Henao was inattentive behind. Well okay, you might claim Henao was unlucky but definitely not Nibali.

Hope this helps.

Did you see him crash?

Well, Nibali said the exact same thing in a post-race interview. He's gracious in defeat and victory. Well, he didn't call it unnecessary risks because according to him he would've been caught without taking those risks.

 

[Netserk]

Nibali did not have bad luck, he took unnecessary risks and crashed by his own mistake. He can only blame himself. And Henao was inattentive behind. Well okay, you might claim Henao was unlucky but definitely not Nibali.

Hope this helps.

Did you see him crash?

Well, Nibali said the exact same thing in a post-race interview. He's gracious in defeat and victory. Well, he didn't call it unnecessary risks because according to him he would've been caught without taking those risks.

He also said that it was because he hit some debris on the road that he crashed, right?

 

[MacBAir]

I'm not saying that GVA isn't a fantastic, badass rider. He is. He is phenomenal.

I'm just saying that he never won a big race like Sagan did last year at the worlds, or this year at RVV. His tour win this year was a breakaway. Compare that to Sagan's wins as well.

I believe that if Sagan was in that group instead of GVA, everyone would race much harder in those big hills, and even the peloton wouldn't have let him go in the first place.

He deserves all the credit in the world for his gutsy, unexpected win. But some members, somehow, for some reason, think that the strongest guy of that race won. They think that GVA won by destroying everyone. He didn't. He was one of the strongest that were allowed to go. He wasn't strong enough to go with Nibs and Henao. He was lucky, gutsy and deserved his win. But that's far from being a "Sagan" moment.

 

[trucido]

Nibali did not have bad luck, he took unnecessary risks and crashed by his own mistake. He can only blame himself. And Henao was inattentive behind. Well okay, you might claim Henao was unlucky but definitely not Nibali.

Hope this helps.

Did you see him crash?

And we haven't even mentioned Henao.