Who do you think is clean?

[auscyclefan94]

But you have been happy in the past to tar all Spanish or all Portuguese riders as doping, whether in jest, for comic effect or in all seriousness. It's hypocritical to apply arbitrary criteria to some riders because of associations and not to others who have shady associations - but it's something we're all guilty of, myself included.


As far as I know, Juanjó Cobo does not have a Fuentes file. There are no failed tests, no Viru or Losa links.

In that case, do you believe that Juanjó Cobo is clean? Has he been linked to doping? If so, how?

This is the point I'm getting at. Juanjó Cobo is linked to doping because we don't believe some of his performances and he rode at a team where lots of doping went on. Cadel Evans rode at teams where lots of doping went on - it comes down to how realistic you think his performances are, how involved you think he was with activities there (eg we can believe Moncoutié was not involved with the Cofidis doping, but are less willing to accept the protestations of innocence of the likes of Zaballa) and as a result, your personal opinion of him (vis-à-vis his level of ability) comes into it.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that double standards are held with regards riders with similar amounts "against" their name, and our personal opinions affect that. I've deliberately used extreme examples like Vicioso and Cobo in order to illustrate the point, because they are riders that most people are willing to say doped and/or dope to the present day.

Vicioso is different to Cobo. I also never mentioned Cobo at all so I don't know what you are babbling on about.

Yes I have tarred Spanish riders as dopers but you also make satirical comments about how English speaking riders must be clean also. So it is not just me that is making stereotypes even if those comments are trying to be humouress.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vicioso is different to Cobo. I also never mentioned Cobo at all so I don't know what you are babbling on about.

Yes I have tarred Spanish riders as dopers but you also make satirical comments about how English speaking riders must be clean also. So it is not just me that is making stereotypes even if those comments are trying to be humouress.

I changed my tack from Vicioso to Cobo as a comparison marker a while back for a few reasons:

1) Vicioso is about the most extreme example I could have chosen, and thus a little unfair
2) Vicioso has likely got a Fuentes file, which makes his case different to Evans, whereas Cobo has not as far as we know
3) Cobo is still perceived by most as being a doper, or at least having been one in the past.

The point is not that Evans is dirty. I never even said that he was. I'm just saying that it's interesting how somebody with his team history is generally perceived as clean, while other people with similar team histories are generally perceived as dirty. The reason? Factors such as anecdotal evidence (see Moncoutié and Tombak, Fedrigo) and personal bias (see my own admissions of inconsistency) then come into play.

It ties back to the reference of why Jens Voigt is supposedly clean because he's been riding since he was a kid, has a family, is a nice guy etc.. None of it is evidence that he's clean, it's just things that make you like him. Ivan Basso's twitter, for a long time, was filled with him being an all-round nice guy and family man. Patrik Sinkewitz is a really nice, personable and friendly guy. So's Isidro Nozal. From the sounds of it, so is Tyler Hamilton.

Hobbes says to Calvin at one point when he's trying to "be good" for Christmas, "maybe there's more to good than the absence of bad". I think that's appropriate when it comes to cycling - there's more to perceiving somebody as clean to a point where you'd be genuinely shocked and upset if they tested positive than having no evidence that they're dirty - we've been burnt too many times and by too many people. So riders about whom there are stories that seemingly show them to be clean (such as Fedrigo or Moncoutié) or whose admissions and quotes suggest a changing of their ways (such as Cunego) are more believable than those who are quiet on the subject of doping, even if there is no reason to actively suspect them. There are too many riders who just quietly get on with their business and who later turn out to have been doping that we're no longer willing to accept their word. We don't have any stories, anecdotes or quotes like those riders above about Evans, therefore we may give him the benefit of the doubt, but it's not with any degree of certainty that we can say he's clean.

Hence why I wouldn't mention him in a thread like this if just answering in list form. Not because I'm certain he dopes, not at all. But because I'm not absolutely certain he doesn't.

 

[webvan]

The only thing that really talks against Evans is that he's associated with people like Lelangue and Rihs who obviously don't have a problem with doping as evidenced by the Hamilton, Landis, and now we find Perreiro doping positives and stories. His association with Telekom is not great either, although we now know that they had "eased up" in the wake of the Festina affair and apparently only really started looking into the hard stuff again after being ridiculed in 2004 by Armstrong and Landis.

For the rest he does look like a "human" racer, prone to failure, (the 2002 collapse when he was in pink), the fact that he didn't pull off a miracle ITT in 2007 and 2008 when it seemed he could win the TDF.

 

[craig1985]

I think somebody like Jeremy Roy of FDJ is clean.

 

[c&cfan]

to webivan

that just shows that he is far from great. we dont know if he is clean or not. well, andy wasnt able to drop a contador that wasnt at his best. still, do you see andy as clean? considering all his family............................................. same goes for evans and his conections. (and his jaws lol)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But as has been pointed out, from pictures of Cadel's dad we can see that the oversized jawline could easily be as much genetics as HGH.

 

[Mambo95]

But as has been pointed out, from pictures of Cadel's dad we can see that the oversized jawline could easily be as much genetics as HGH.

He's always had a jawline like that

 

[auscyclefan94]

But as has been pointed out, from pictures of Cadel's dad we can see that the oversized jawline could easily be as much genetics as HGH.

A picture of him less than a year old has him with a very big jaw line. Would love to scan the photo and upload it somehow but I am not great with technology.

I also question why athletes would use HGH especially because of fluid retention and possible lower stamina for endurance event as possible effects.

 

[andy1234]

He's always had a jawline like that

Around here, that photo is just evidence if how early Evans began his programme.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Around here, that photo is just evidence if how early Evans began his programme.

His Mum and Dad must of been giving it to him at less than 6 months old. Amazing that parents can predict that their kid at that age is going to become a cyclist and give their kid a drug which was not even invented at that time.

 

[MADRAZO]

I'd say Lovkvist.

I agree Lövkvist is propably one of the most likely nondopers. A huge young talent that has never lived up to his potential and that has shown a lack of recovery in GTs could very well indicate him being handicaped from not doping.

Im pretty sure Kasper Klostergaard is clean too just for the 100% lack of suspicious riding

 

[hrotha]

The problem with that reasoning is that there's plenty of nobodies who are caught. Were Sentjens's performances suspicious?

 

[Galic Ho]

Here are some more riders who, to all intents and purposes, have nothing against their name save for the teams they raced for. Let's see how we perceive them all:

Carlos Sastre (ONCE 1998-2001, CSC 2002-2008)
Joaquím Rodríguez (ONCE 2001-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2005)
Fabian Wegmann (Gerolsteiner 2002-2008)
Sergei Ivanov (T-Mobile 2004-2006, Astana 2007-2008)
Oliver Zaugg (Saunier Duval 2004-2006, Gerolsteiner 2007-2008)
Juan José Cobo (Saunier Duval 2004-2009)
Marco Pinotti (Lampre 1999-2004, Saunier Duval 2005-2006, T-Mobile 2007)
Rubens Bertogliatti (Lampre 1999-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2008, Androni Giocattoli 2009-2010)
Josep Jufre (Boavista 1999-2002, Relax 2003-2005, Fuji 2008-2009, Astana 2010-2011)

The point is, many riders out there have some team history that doesn't exactly cover them with glory. That's all that we have for certain against Evans, his team history. We then have to make a judgement call - some riders on the above list are seen as cleaner than others. And both rational (performances we watch and how realistic they are) and irrational (biased personal opinions both of the rider as a person and of their physical capabilities) factors will be called on to make that judgement call. Like I said before, I have no reason to believe Tondó when he says he knew nothing of the LA-MSS shenanigans. But still I do, because I want to.

This above bit is what is wrong with the Clinic. This whole thread has been done over and over. Evans name always gets dragged up and ACF94 rushes to his defense. Just drop it. I like your perspective but your missing old news from major threads.

Take Cobo for instance. Saunier Duval pulled out of the 2008 Tour to save his ****. It has been mentioned in the Clinic in years past that Cobo's blood was so thick in 2008 he went to bed hooked up to a heart monitor in case his heart stopped pumping at night. Ricco and Piepoli were using less juice than Cobo. If you want to know why Cobo was crap last season...it is because he was more than likely riding at his clean, natural level. As for Carlos...give me a break. Take his Alpe time from 2008. He was 2 minutes faster than the next crop of guys and he put in a chrono of a lifetime. He was juicing in 2008 and it is why he won the Tour. Smart riding but not clean. Do you honestly think after 2 and a half weeks someone can do a sub 40 minute ascent of Alpe d'Huez clean? Name me one clean rider who has...thus you eliminate Carlos from the list. Note Carlos performance after 2008. All dropped down except for the 2009 Giro. Away from the Saxo drug machine he hasn't been as good. Riding cleaner. Hoped on the sauce for his big chance to win. Do I blame him? Nope. He did enough to win when his chance arose.

Now ACF94 can tell us why Evans won't do the same thing this year if it arises. Sheesh, he was close to Rasmussen and AC in 2007. Nobody thinks they weren't chugging down anything less than a few extra blood bags in 2007. Heck, Cadel was close to Valverde in 2009 in the Vuelta. Cadel is that good clean? Or is it a matter of a rider doping once, visiting idiotville then returning home after their holiday with the dopers? This rubbish has been covered one so many threads it is pointless. Evans is doing at a minimum recovery doping.

Clean guys. Moncoutie. The little Prince. Lantern rouge. I'd have said Gerdemann last year but not this year. Nobody joins team Schleck and races clean. Maybe if he isn't on a squad at a race the Schlecks want to win I will give him a reprieve. A lot of the other clean riders we don't hear about or aren't well known enough. There is a reason for this. Doping works. You do well, maybe win. Your name becomes recognised and your market value increases. Ask Wigans about that one.

 

[Barrus]

Galic Ho, I think you missed a few threads seeing as ACF although still a strong fan of Evans does recognize the possibility and perhaps even the probability that Evans uses doping. So it is unfair for you to attack him as such. He does defend Evans but does so with some reasonable evidence, just as reasonable as those that critize Evans for doping

 

[zapata]

Nibali, anyone? I know, I know. GT-winner, italian, supposedly seen with ferrari, etc. Nevertheless, I'm a fan of his, and when I'm optimistic, I like to think that maybe his performances are what you would expect from a clean, very talented cyclist? He won the vuelta, but didn't ever look Extraterrestial to me. If he suddenly starts rocketing up mountains like sella or ricco, I'll be very sceptical, but for now i give him the benefit of doubt.

 

[MADRAZO]

The problem with that reasoning is that there's plenty of nobodies who are caught. Were Sentjens's performances suspicious?

Very, in that Vuelta he had suddenly become a quite decent climber...

 

[delbified]

these threads remind me of catch-22 by joseph heller. if you win, you're automatically under suspicion of doping. there's no scenario under which you can win and be regarded as clean. which isn't to say they are, just like the yossarian character in the book, who was also dogging it.

 

[hrotha]

Very, in that Vuelta he had suddenly become a quite decent climber...

I was checking his results and was about to concede defeat when I saw he was 33rd in the 2008 Vuelta GC. Maybe 2010 wasn't his first time, no matter what he said.

 

[The Hitch]

Nibali, anyone? I know, I know. GT-winner, italian, supposedly seen with ferrari, etc. Nevertheless, I'm a fan of his, and when I'm optimistic, I like to think that maybe his performances are what you would expect from a clean, very talented cyclist? He won the vuelta, but didn't ever look Extraterrestial to me. If he suddenly starts rocketing up mountains like sella or ricco, I'll be very sceptical, but for now i give him the benefit of doubt.

Of course i believe Nibali as a gt winner in 2010 is dirty by default. But there are other minor reasons you might want to look at.

Is best friends with Ivan Basso - the "if you were clean wouldnt you be very angry about dopers" argument.

Beat Ezequiel Mosquera - a top Spanish climber who was on epo, at the 2010 Vuelta.

Was the 3rd caballero in the triumvirate on the Mortirolo. The other 2- Basso and Scarponi.

Is italian

 

[zapata]

I'm not saying Nibali is clean, but being friends with basso and beating mosquera is not conclusive evidence, if you ask me.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm not saying Nibali is clean, but being friends with basso and beating mosquera is not conclusive evidence, if you ask me.

Thats why i used the word minor.

At the end of the day, you cant find conclusive proof someone is doping unless they
a fail a test
b admit it.

You know Nibali has done neither and nor, if i may add have the majority of dopers, so i dont know why you expect to find any conclusive evidence

 

[craig1985]

I agree Lövkvist is propably one of the most likely nondopers. A huge young talent that has never lived up to his potential and that has shown a lack of recovery in GTs could very well indicate him being handicaped from not doping.

Im pretty sure Kasper Klostergaard is clean too just for the 100% lack of suspicious riding

blackcat considers/ed Lövkvist to be clean, so good enough for me. I hope Gilbert is clean, but it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't. Maybe he was clean when he started, and in the last few years he started taking PEDs.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This above bit is what is wrong with the Clinic. This whole thread has been done over and over. Evans name always gets dragged up and ACF94 rushes to his defense. Just drop it. I like your perspective but your missing old news from major threads.

Take Cobo for instance. Saunier Duval pulled out of the 2008 Tour to save his ****. It has been mentioned in the Clinic in years past that Cobo's blood was so thick in 2008 he went to bed hooked up to a heart monitor in case his heart stopped pumping at night. Ricco and Piepoli were using less juice than Cobo. If you want to know why Cobo was crap last season...it is because he was more than likely riding at his clean, natural level. As for Carlos...give me a break. Take his Alpe time from 2008. He was 2 minutes faster than the next crop of guys and he put in a chrono of a lifetime. He was juicing in 2008 and it is why he won the Tour. Smart riding but not clean. Do you honestly think after 2 and a half weeks someone can do a sub 40 minute ascent of Alpe d'Huez clean? Name me one clean rider who has...thus you eliminate Carlos from the list. Note Carlos performance after 2008. All dropped down except for the 2009 Giro. Away from the Saxo drug machine he hasn't been as good. Riding cleaner. Hoped on the sauce for his big chance to win. Do I blame him? Nope. He did enough to win when his chance arose.

But my point was not that the guys in the list were any cleaner or dirtier than Evans - more that we have differing opinions of various riders who have ridden on suspicious teams. Nobody has officially corroborated the story about Cobo in 2008 beyond anecdotal stories, but because of his performances and spectacular decline since, I can believe it. A guy like Fabian Wegmann doesn't seem dirty, as he seems to accumulate his results without ever really picking up too much attention, but then I think back to the seven seasons at Gerolsteiner and his Giro KOM and only then do I start to suspect him, whereas Cobo I'm prepared to say was dirty without a second's thought.

Sastre's nickname in Spain is "Mr Clean". That doesn't mean he is, but it shows how different the perceptions of riders who've spent much of their career on dubious teams can be.

A picture of him less than a year old has him with a very big jaw line. Would love to scan the photo and upload it somehow but I am not great with technology.

I also question why athletes would use HGH especially because of fluid retention and possible lower stamina for endurance event as possible effects.

I haven't seen the pictures of baby Cadel, but I have seen his dad, hence why I dismissed the theory that looking at his features is evidence of HGH abuse, since it looks to be genetics.

It takes me back to the arguments about Giorgia Bronzini when she won the Worlds. That she must be doping cos she looked a bit butch. But she may just naturally have a higher testosterone level because of genetics, and that's an advantage (hence why people dope with it). Cadel's genetics may include a higher level of HGH (hence the large jawline and features that have caused people to suggest HGH abuse) completely naturally - and this would of course be a natural advantage for him and partially explain his high talent level.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Thats why i used the word minor.

At the end of the day, you cant find conclusive proof someone is doping unless they
a fail a test
b admit it.
c keep up with dopers
You know Nibali has done neither and nor, if i may add have the majority of dopers, so i dont know why you expect to find any conclusive evidence

You forgot that.

 

[The Hitch]

You forgot that.

I certainly support this logic. But it isn't quite "conclusive proof".