Who had a better season Freire or Greipel?

[Kvinto]

You're forgetting the Scheldeprijs

Scheldeprijs is cobbled, that is quite different

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Scheldeprijs is cobbled, that is quite different

yeah but it's often won by sprinters. Especially these last years

2010 - Tyler Farrar
2009 - Alessandro Petacchi
2008 - Mark Cavendish
2007 - Mark Cavendish
2006 - Tom Boonen
2004 - Tom Boonen
2002 - Robbie McEwen
1997 - Erik Zabel
1993 - Mario Cipollini

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm sorry, but just take a look at the field in the most recent editions of Eneco and Pologne, and you can only conclude than Pologne simply isn't at the same level. Which doesn't matter to me, it's a much more enjoyable race (at least this year it was), but come on, get real. Eneco had Tony Martin, EBH, Klöden, Boom, Moerenhout, Porte... some of the best time trialists in the world in a race which is generally won by a time trialist. Pologne was a climbers' race, and while talented, Martin and Mollema aren't yet among the best climbers in the world.

Eneco is a top level stage race that doesn't award a mountains jersey, and thus is worthless in my eyes. We may laugh about the TdP's one (at least for the first four stages) but at least it has one.

Any stage race that a sprinter can viably win with bonus seconds alone is a worthless stage race, and thus TdP>Eneco>TDU in the battle of the least strong ProTour stage races.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

yeah but it's often won by sprinters. Especially these last years

2010 - Tyler Farrar
2009 - Alessandro Petacchi
2008 - Mark Cavendish
2007 - Mark Cavendish
2006 - Tom Boonen
2004 - Tom Boonen
2002 - Robbie McEwen
1997 - Erik Zabel
1993 - Mario Cipollini

Ouch, 7 of the last 9. Needs to be made tougher, the boredom police have taken over.

 

[theyoungest]

Eneco is a top level stage race that doesn't award a mountains jersey, and thus is worthless in my eyes. We may laugh about the TdP's one (at least for the first four stages) but at least it has one.

Any stage race that a sprinter can viably win with bonus seconds alone is a worthless stage race, and thus TdP>Eneco>TDU in the battle of the least strong ProTour stage races.

Your idea of "strength" apparently is "ability to climb a mountain". That's all very well, but don't use it as an argument, because it's an opinion. And once again, I too do not care for the Eneco Tour, but if we're talking about strength of the field, Eneco beats Poland's a$$.

If I would like boerenkool I'd be as Dutch as it gets ;p

How can you not like boerenkool? There isn't even really any taste to it.

 

[Kvinto]

yeah but it's often won by sprinters. Especially these last years

I know, but imo it doesn't sound proudly when the cobbled race is considered as the race for the sprinters

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Your idea of "strength" apparently is "ability to climb a mountain". That's all very well, but don't use it as an argument, because it's an opinion. And once again, I too do not care for the Eneco Tour, but if we're talking about strength of the field, Eneco beats Poland's a$$.

If we're talking about strength of the field, TDU beats both, but it's a nothing race. Field strength means jack unless riders care about winning.

And my argument was that any race a sprinter can viably win with bonus seconds alone is worthless. Were there some premier sprinters at the Eneco? Sure. But the race is still worthless if they're also the GC men. The sprinting field is strong at the Tour, but those guys shouldn't be part of the GC. A sprinter is only involved in the GC in the stage race if it's a) before the intended selective stages, or b) because the race isn't hard enough. The sprinting field will still show up because of the opportunity to get race wins, of which they already have too many.

One of the easiest ways to shake up the GC is of course to have hills and mountains. This is an option for Eneco, but not to a great extent. Another is the time trial, but in a stage race like Eneco, it's a delicate balancing act choosing the length of said TT; too long and you create a simple 'win the TT win the race' situation like you find at races like Sardegna, Missouri and Murcía, too short and the sprinters are still rocking up on the GC podium.

 

[theyoungest]

If we're talking about strength of the field, TDU beats both, but it's a nothing race. Field strength means jack unless riders care about winning.

And my argument was that any race a sprinter can viably win with bonus seconds alone is worthless. Were there some premier sprinters at the Eneco? Sure. But the race is still worthless if they're also the GC men. The sprinting field is strong at the Tour, but those guys shouldn't be part of the GC. A sprinter is only involved in the GC in the stage race if it's a) before the intended selective stages, or b) because the race isn't hard enough. The sprinting field will still show up because of the opportunity to get race wins, of which they already have too many.

One of the easiest ways to shake up the GC is of course to have hills and mountains. This is an option for Eneco, but not to a great extent. Another is the time trial, but in a stage race like Eneco, it's a delicate balancing act choosing the length of said TT; too long and you create a simple 'win the TT win the race' situation like you find at races like Sardegna, Missouri and Murcía, too short and the sprinters are still rocking up on the GC podium.

The only sprinter that had a legitimate chance of winning this year's Eneco was EBH, but apart from a sprinter he's also a great time trialist. There has never even been a sprinter on the final podium at Eneco. So I really don't know what you're on about with sprinters in the GC race. Maybe you should check the race out once, you might enjoy it. I don't, but at least I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I have checked out the race a couple of times. José Iván Gutiérrez won it a couple of times. Tyler Farrar pulled out from 2nd place before the final TT in 2009. I check out the Eneco, but mostly it bores me. 2009's race consisted of 5 bunch sprints, a slightly broken up windy stage and a TT. 2008's race had 6 bunch sprints and a TT.

Forgive me for being sceptical of paying too much attention to the 2010 race given that I don't like bunch sprints and over the two previous editions 11 out of 14 stages went to bunch sprints.

 

[theyoungest]

I have checked out the race a couple of times. José Iván Gutiérrez won it a couple of times. Tyler Farrar pulled out from 2nd place before the final TT in 2009. I check out the Eneco, but mostly it bores me. 2009's race consisted of 5 bunch sprints, a slightly broken up windy stage and a TT. 2008's race had 6 bunch sprints and a TT.

Forgive me for being sceptical of paying too much attention to the 2010 race given that I don't like bunch sprints and over the two previous editions 11 out of 14 stages went to bunch sprints.

Oh, no argument there, it's a boring race alright (I believe I've indicated that a couple of times now already), but that wasn't my point. Although the stage Moerenhout won was somewhat entertaining, creating an unseen before gap on GC.

 

[Kwibus]

What I really don't understand about the Eneco Tour is their lack of making good use of the Ardennes. When they are in the ardennes they put in a bunch of hills halfway and then 40-50km flat to the finish. So Pointless.

It will always be a sprinter/tt race, but if you add 2 stages with hills in the last 10-20km atleast it will interesting to watch and gives some diversity in the GC. A explosive climber could challenge a good TT rider for the GC etc.

 

[Angliru]

MSR and Paris Tours are the two classics that can be categorized as sprinter's classics. Freire, a sprinter, wins both. While points jerseys are a good thing, unless they are at one of the grand tours they really don't measure up to a classics win and definitely not 2 of them. Of course Greipel was more prolific with significantly more wins than Freire but I would bet he himself would trade every one of them for a classic win, especially an MSR.

 

[Matthijs]

Since Freire is so obvious the better one, I just keep on going about Eneco
They do have hilly stages in Zuid-Limburg (AGR hills) and ardennes of flamish hills. But, allthough stages are hard and exciting to watch with breakaways (allmost) to the finish, the end tend to be a sprint of a smaller bunch. It's not a sprint with 150 in the hills, but still...
Is it because they want to finish in larger cities? It's easy to make the race harder by just end near the hills they use. A lot of stages are ok, the same excitement as a minor one day race, but they should fix this. However, winning for a sprinter is only possible if this sprinter is in fact a classic specialist sprinter (can handle the hills good) with a good TT.
Mountain top jersey: come on, mountains in Benelux Hill jersey is possible. Even in GT the KOM is a joke, so why bother? If the GT keep the price money on the HC mountains the same as the know-on-cares intermediate sprints, no top-climber in good form will really target. In smaller stage races it's a price for the losers and in Eneco no losers are at the start

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

If I'm Greipel, I wouldn't bemoan his results. He had a great season. Absolutely. But if I was racing, and I'm not, and I had a choice of what races I'd rather have on my palmeres, I'd pick Freire's wins over Greipel's.