Who had the Biggest sporting change in History?

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Who has the biggest performance jump from Donkey to Race Horse

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Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
1.) You seem to be under the impression that I think he's clean now or something?

2.) Chances are he was clean(ish) during his first stint though. That's the difference for me. That's why his FDJ results mean zilch to me.
1.) No, i don´t think that you think he is clean now.
2.) Chances are Froome was clean(ish) too. So it´s a chicken-egg race. Still i give Froome the benefit of the doubt since a.) he wasn´t active in the late90s/early00 era b.) he didn´t say stupid things like "never positive = true winner" BS like Horner did, didn´t ride injured on 15 race day legs, etc., etc. ...
 
oldcrank said:
Contador. Zero wins his first two years as an amateur.
Not exactly a natural talent from the get-go. But when
he hooked up with Saiz, well that is a whole other story.
ah, yes, clentadoppucci.

and of course his precursor, chiappucci.

riis is definitely up there.

all three would be completely and utterly unknown without dope.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
1.) No, i don´t think that you think he is clean now.
2.) Chances are Froome was clean(ish) too. So it´s a chicken-egg race. Still i give Froome the benefit of the doubt since a.) he wasn´t active in the late90s/early00 era b.) he didn´t say stupid things like "never positive = true winner" BS like Horner did, didn´t ride injured on 15 race day legs, etc., etc. ...
(2) doesn't apply here because while yes, Froome was likely clean(ish) at first, he wasn't riding in an era when you could put as much EPO as you wanted in your system, hence natural talent had more chances to shine through. That's my point. It's a huge difference. So the whole "not having any results of note at a certain age" is a lot more meaningful in the case of Froome.

Not to mention the whole "not having any results of note before breaking through suddenly" thing.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
What is "un-sudden" of Horner?
At least the sudden explosion of Froome came in his 20s, not 30s...
You already know Horner's palmares, about Basque Country and California and his top 10 at the Tour. That's why you switched to the whole "yeah but Horner was a no one in his 20s too!" argument.
 
Don't act like Horner hasn't been a very good climber ever since he became a real pro. It's not like he transformed into a climber over night. He simply couldn't show it over longer periods due to crashes, ilness, doemstique roles and other missfortunes.
 
oldcrank said:
Contador. Zero wins his first two years as an amateur.
Not exactly a natural talent from the get-go. But when
he hooked up with Saiz, well that is a whole other story.
Big Doopie said:
ah, yes, clentadoppucci.

and of course his precursor, chiappucci.

riis is definitely up there.

all three would be completely and utterly unknown without dope.
BS.

Contador has as much talent in his left pinky toe as all the riders listed in the poll combined.

See I can make ridiculous claims too.

It's your word against mine.
 
Aug 18, 2012
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hrotha said:
Hmm, the era before there was even a test for EPO? The era when you could get as much of it in your system as you wanted, as long as you could get a saline drip in time?
According to Tyler Hamilton's account Riis confided in him when Hamilton joined CSC that he used three blood bags in his 1996 Tour win.

Lance also used blood bags as his main weapon 2000-2005. Hamilton said he heavily suspected Lance had been using transfusions prior to 2000 it's arguable that he used Motoman/EPO during the tour not because it was more effective than blood bags but because with the sensitive FDA in France post Festina Motoman presented less of a risk.

Of course at some point after having the blood withdrawn using EPO would help to boost the Haematocrit aiding in pre- tour preparation for training and giving another bag. Hamilton said he never took EPO immediately after giving a blood bag but gave it some time (how much time that was I don't know).

Obviously times shot up during that era but using blood bags is more complicated than buying EPO over the counter in Switzerland and injecting yourself.
 
hrotha said:
(2) doesn't apply here because while yes, Froome was likely clean(ish) at first, he wasn't riding in an era when you could put as much EPO as you wanted in your system, hence natural talent had more chances to shine through. That's my point. It's a huge difference. So the whole "not having any results of note at a certain age" is a lot more meaningful in the case of Froome.

Not to mention the whole "not having any results of note before breaking through suddenly" thing.
So you are saying the peleton was cleanish in 2007?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
You already know Horner's palmares, about Basque Country and California and his top 10 at the Tour. That's why you switched to the whole "yeah but Horner was a no one in his 20s too!" argument.
And what is unfair about it?
Anyway, lets forget about age. Why didn´t Horner show his super GT talent in the (some call it) clean(ish) era 2006 to 2011?
He easily could have made it Top-3 as super domestique like Lemond did (or Froome for that matter). I mean a guy who dominates a GT at age 42 should be the greatest rider ever, but not one who finishes around 20th to 60th in GT´s.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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As I remember, for the 92 season Riis only got a contract, because he got help from Rolf Sorensen. 4 year later, he beats Mutant Indurain. Guess that's what Ferreti- Gewiss- Telekom could do for you. If you were willing to risk as much as Riis was.
 
LaFlorecita said:
It's your word against mine.
No, the fact is he did not when a single race his first
two years as an amateur, a time when most future
champions are showing a wealth of natural talent.
However, when he came under the wing of Mr. Saiz
a truly astonishing transformation took place.
 
Feb 24, 2012
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oldcrank said:
No, the fact is he did not when a single race his first
two years as an amateur, a time when most future
champions are showing a wealth of natural talent.
However, when he came under the wing of Mr. Saiz
a truly astonishing transformation took place.
According to cycling archives, he has at least one victory prior to riding for Saíz. I may be wrong, but eh...
 
roundabout said:
For a guy plucked from the Peace Race his performances in 2000 were pretty surprising
He had some decent results in 99 riding for a Div 2 team with limited race schedule, hence why he was signed by Fassa. Ferretti didn't sign too many nobodies. Not saying it wasn't a big jump but compared to Froome or Riis, it pales in comparison.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Apart from having a big smile, a Cancer Foundation, high cadence, big heart, etc.

We want to know who had the biggest jump from being a "Donkey" to a "Race Horse"

If you don't agree with the choices just vote other and explain.

Thanks.

Edit: I am undecided between Froome and Riis. I am waiting for people to give me a better case for any of the two.
Who's Vivo?

But not even close between Riis and Froome. Riis, clearly.

Riis: Explosion in 93, he was 29. Before that he was a mix between Nicki Sörensen and Michael Mörköv to keep it Danish. Actually Nicki Sörensen probably not a good comparison, unlike Riis he showed some talent in the hills/mountains. Let's say Mörkövs climbing skill but not the TT and track skills. That part he gets from Nicki S. Then out of absolutely NOTHING he got 5th or 6th at the 93 TdF.

Froome: Explosion 2011 at 26. But he did show some talent before. After the Tour 08, where he climbed with the best over the Col de la Croix de Fer (or was it Glandon?) ven when the group got fairly small, then kind of blew on Alpe d'Huez, then the good last TT. After that he was certainly on the radar as a rider who could possibly do well in GTs in the future. Like
50 others, yes. Kind of confirmed it in the Giro 09, although there he looked less like a potential Top 10 guy, more like what Cyril Gautier looks now. Plus better TT. A guy who will be a fairly good mountain domestique, but probably never more. A top 20 as a leader possible, but not more. Then yep, he completely disappeared, and then... we know the story. But unlike Riis he did show some potential early on, Riis never did until 93. Froome was a guy who might have potential. Riis was a known value, an ok rider for escapes, nothing more.

Like Mörköv vs Gautier now if you want. What would be the bigger surprise, if Mörköv is a GC rider in 2014 and wins the Tour in 2017, or if Gautier does that? Same with Riis vs Froome.
 
Feb 24, 2012
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oldcrank said:
Actually, on that point you are wrong, because Iberdrola
was also ran by Mr. Saiz.
All right, then. I didn't remember that, and the website didn't say so, but you're probably right.

ETA: Checked it up and yeah, you're definitely right. I'm in the middle of exams, and my mind is so not on cycling history, recent or otherwise right now. Honest mistake.
 
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