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This seems to assume that "bosses" refers to team managers, etc. But if you look at the quotations, well, Landis is explicitly talking about those "responsible at UCI", and Evans is too, though a bit more implicitly, since he's referring to those who are responsible for all the scrutiny and testing. That's not the team managers (for the most part)... that's, again, those "responsible at UCI".Libertine Seguros said:They're both truthful. Some bosses are trying to clean things up, others are tied to the system. Some are trying to clean things up on the surface but underneath are as corrupt as ever. Some are genuinely trying to clean things up but are unable to because they're tied to the sport's past, and there are too many vested interests for the sport to be either wholly corrupt (sponsorship/races collapse) or wholly clean (too much to sacrifice for too many people).
We feel a little bit overly scrutinised sometimes. Cycling [bosses] are doing the right thing to try to clean up the sport and they're really doing it with transparency, but just because they catch one person with however many tests they do, it doesn't mean that everyone's a cheat.
Ninety5rpm said:This seems to assume that "bosses" refers to team managers, etc. But if you look at the quotations, well, Landis is explicitly talking about those "responsible at UCI", and Evans is too, though a bit more implicitly, since he's referring to those who are responsible for all the scrutiny and testing. That's not the team managers (for the most part)... that's, again, those "responsible at UCI".
Consider Evan's words again:
So, the people responsible for all the scrutiny and testing are "doing the right thing to try to clean up the sport"? Do you really think he really believes that?
yourwelcome said:Has it occurred to anybody that Evans may speak without formulating his sentences to withstand minute scrutiny?
Hugh Januss said:Much in the style of his #1 fan?
I've got nothing against Evans. Well, other than he's boring, like Leipheimer.auscyclefan94 said:Ninety5rpm, do you have something against evans? You made some very strong statements about him in another thread and then you make this thread about a single comment. It is like you are almost are out to get him?
Lot of people seem to have come away with this interpretation, and I don't understand why. Wishful thinking, perhaps? Here, again, is the full quote:Nick777 said:I might have misunderstood, but my take was that Evans was referring to a lot of the DS's rather than the UCI. So, he is saying that the guys like Vaughters etc are trying to clean up the sport.
If he was referring to the UCI, he is either very naive & really hoping that what he is saying is true, or he is spinning the company line.
Ninety5rpm said:Lot of people seem to have come away with this interpretation, and I don't understand why. Wishful thinking, perhaps? Here, again, is the full quote:
"We feel a little bit overly scrutinised sometimes. Cycling [bosses] are doing the right thing to try to clean up the sport and they're really doing it with transparency, but just because they catch one person with however many tests they do, it doesn't mean that everyone's a cheat."
Overly scrutinized? By Vaughters and other DS's? No way..
The next sentence starts with "Cycling bosses", and in the latter part refers to "they" who are catching persons with tests. Again, the DS's are not catching anyone, with tests or otherwise. What in his words makes you or anyone else think he's referring to DS's here?
I think it's pretty clear he can only be referring to UCI upper management as "cycling bosses".
Remember that the public at large, the press, and even most of cycling fans believe the UCI is on the side of cleaning up the sport. Naive, but their propaganda machine has been effective, to some extent, and spreading this meme. And Cadel is quite obviously part of it.
Francois the Postman said:When Evans used "bosses" I thought he was casting it a bit wider than just the testers and UCI alone. It sounded to me more like a reflection on the direction that the different sport shapers were triggering once you added up all the pluses and minuses. Acknowledging that the combined forces at work are indeed having an active impact, and on the whole are heading in a more transparent and honest direction.
That is not the same as saying all people with an oar are paddling the cycling canoe in the same direction.
Evans always struck me as a "don't rock the boat, I just want to ride however it comes and be left alone" type of rider, so he makes a half-way house statement that makes a point without pushing anything in any real direction.
Obviously dislikes aspects of the constant spyglass hanging over him as a rider. Lack of privacy and increasing scrutiny, sacrificing the normality of life to a great extent. Probably appreciates some of the work that that is done too, without caring too much I think. He's in a reasonable good place, most people go with the flow and take it all the way it comes then.
What sometimes gets lost in translation when people talk about the whole, is that there isn't "one force" at work. Some people are trying to clean it up. Some aren't. Some care, some don't, some obstruct. The UCI isn't "one" thing, but we often talk about it as if it is only capable of doing "one" thing and has just "one internal voice". With so many people involved, organisations tend to walk in different directions, sometimes conflicting directions, all at once.
There are strong anchors out, but bit by bit there appears to be a shift of direction in the deeply rooted culture, and we are indeed seeing a bit more openness, a bit more scrutiny, a bit more effort, in the sport as a whole.
Hardly ever because a genuine shift the attitude of people in place. Unless they only get embarrassed into making changes. But there are more active and powerful outside forces at work these days. And usually that also means that the internal culture adapts, and gets more appropriate people in the right spots. Slowly.
The sport isn't 100% corrupt. Not everyone is a cheat, let alone a cheat at heart. A lot of people are simply adapting to what they find, rather than setting out to cheat as such. Nor is the entire circus around the riders just there to stuff their pockets regardless. Some genuinely care.
So I go with Evans, that compared to what it was like, it is indeed more transparent, or at least some are making genuine efforts to make it so, and overall it is getting a bit more honest. Some genuine efforts are being made (by some).
There is still a lot of water to cross before we reach the promised land, and it will some serious sea-splitting if we want to take a short-cut there fast. There are also a lot of peculiar and powerful winds blowing from across the sea that are creating waves where none managed to create ripples before. I'm curious to see if it does herald some significant water movement in the near future, or if it is gonna be draining the pool by patching one leaky bucket at a time.
movingtarget said:More pointless Evan's bashing. Landis has no credibility at all. He is just another manipulator who thinks the world owes him something. Sure Evan's comments sound like PR but that's not uncommon for someone in his position. I think most people know what he is on about.
Ferminal said:So you believe Landis is lying when he says that all riders are not treated equally by the UCI?
That's a big statement given what we know about donations etc.
movingtarget said:More pointless Evan's bashing. Landis has no credibility at all. He is just another manipulator who thinks the world owes him something. Sure Evan's comments sound like PR but that's not uncommon for someone in his position. I think most people know what he is on about.
auscyclefan94 said:No matter how truthful landis is, he has lied under oath and has little credibility. I believe him but many others won't until he can start providing some substance to his arguements. Like that picture of the epo coming in the panniers that he has.
JMBeaushrimp said:Well, that's just being entirely ignorant or plainly ***.
Not in your backyard? Is that the issue?
Interesting. Also utterly predictable and deeply depressing.JA.Tri said:"Your Welcome" Post 31
Agreed. While I see CE as always trying to answer thoughfully I do not think he is mathematically calculating every permutation or possible interpretation of his thoughts/words.
It is interesting the lengths to which we go to tease out all those possibilities.
A worthwhile note.
Yes, the whole "no credibility" argument is quintessential ad hominem attack, a classic logical fallacy:Ferminal said:I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Does lying "under oath" make you a worse liar than people like McQuaid, Armstrong, Contador etc who lie to global media outlets? Is it not a lie if you use twitter? If you twitter it twice does it make it credible? (to borrow a line from nyvelocity). Which statements from Flandis in the last 6month do you determine to be false?
The whole no credibility suggestion is nothing but a beat up by those who have a stake in outcome of the current investigation. Of course Flandis may be overstating things like we all do, but it's fairly obvious that the general idea "not all riders are treated equally" is a plausible one.
Ninety5rpm said:If it is "known in the peloton" then Evans must know as he is "in the peloton".
So which is it, cycling bosses are "doing the right thing to try to clean up the sport", or they "protect some people [to] manipulate results and create stars"?
Who speaks the truth? Who is lying?