Who is the better cyclist: Merckx or Armstrong?

[Hugh Januss]

It depends on what the meaning of the word is is.

 

[Lifeshape]

I find your statement a little conflicting in that is it really "different times and different standards" ??

As it stands, Armstrong won 7 Tours, and something like 8 of the guys on the podiums were also alleged and/or convicted dopers.

So one could conclude that during Armstrongs reign, the standard train of thought was: to win the Tour, you must dope.

Perhaps the same for Merckx, I don't know, perhaps the standard was: to win a race, you need a little pick-me-up?

Could you just clarify what you meant by "different standards"? Thanks in advance..

For the record, clearly Merckx is the greatest, not even worth discussing that!

Different times and different standards: How was drug use in sports viewed then as it is compared to now? Certainly less reprehensible. We now have the benefit of research about doping and they didn't. The difference is we now know just how much a difference PEDs play in the outcome of a race moreso than we did then. Now the only alternative is, since we can't improve ourselves more than holistic health, we improve the equipment we employ. I mean lenticular wheel discs that create negative draft??? That sounds like performance enhancement to me...

 

[franciep10]

Merckx no doubts about it, anybody that believes otherwise is seriously obtuse. As to the different times different standards all I have to say is their is a large difference between amphetamines an appetite suppressant and epo.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Overall Ranking
1. Eddy Merckx (BEL) 23232
2. Sean Kelly (IRL) 19189
3. Joop Zoetemelk (NED) 17127
4. Raymond Poulidor (FRA) 16194
5. Erik Zabel (GER) 15470
6. Gino Bartali (ITA) 15399
7. Francesco Moser (ITA) 14709
8. Laurent Jalabert (FRA) 14426
9. Bernard Hinault (FRA) 14069
10. Jacques Anquetil (FRA) 13841
11. Roger de Vlaeminck (BEL) 13501
12. Rik van Looy (BEL) 13435
13. Felice Gimondi (ITA) 13306
14. Louison Bobet (FRA) 12347
15.Lance Armstrong (USA) 12340

I have that on a top cycling website. The end.

Dude, Hinault behind Zabel? Seriously?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Dude, Hinault behind Zabel? Seriously?

Well, it's all about the points. Zabel has 200+ wins, countless points classifications (9 GT jerseys?) and all those Milan-San Remo, Paris-Tours...

Nothing is perfect.

 

[SirLes]

Bartali is the best of all!!

Sixth in the list and he lost his best 5-6 years due to WWII.

Take out Eddie's wins from 1970-1975 for a fair comparison!!

OK so I'm flaming a bit but Bartali never gets a mention in these discussions (Coppi does ) but his record was damn impressive and the bit about WWII is true!

 

[Oncearunner8]

Eddie Merckx

Eddie Merckx

Eddie Merckx

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Funny Q,

simple answer: M E R C K X

 

[Oldman]

Eddie Merckx

Eddie Merckx

Eddie Merckx

And of course both the young and old/Vegas version of Eddie Merckx. Can Lance even grow sideburns?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I always get confused with this....

Is this post flaming, baiting or just plain trolling?

It´s plain trolling. May he even don´t know the difference between EPO/life-threatening blood transfusions and some old school "PEDs". I mean even the docs of Fignon were laughing when he told them what simple stuff was taken in the 70s/80s.

Merckx No. 1, Epo-Lance nothing. Simple as that...

 

[craig1985]

According to cyclinghalloffame.com, Armstrong is 3rd.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

According to cyclinghalloffame.com, Armstrong is 3rd.

Is that an american site? That would explain it.

Just was at startlists.com. They "vomited" about Vino´s return, but had no such remarks about Epo-Lance. Seems like those US-sites are blind on one eye.

 

[pedaling squares]

I always get confused with this....

Is this post flaming, baiting or just plain trolling?

I think this is what passes for trolling at the end of January. Yawn.

 

[Le breton]

willy voet protests your use of his name

Merckx: 5 Giros, 5 TdFs, 1 Vuelta, 3 Worlds, hour record, 19 major classics

Armstrong: 7 Tours, 1 World, 2 major classics.

Seems like no contest, except that Merckx was busted 3 times for PEDs during his career.
Thus, Armstrong is the greatest ever because he rides clean.

willy voet protests your use of his name

 

[BroDeal]

Does Armstrong even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Merckx?? Armstrong could not even finish the TdF until he became a client of the most notorious dope doctor in the sport. Imagine what Merckx could have done if he had been drugged by Dr. Ferrari.

 

[Oldman]

Does Armstrong even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Merckx?? Armstrong could not even finish the TdF until he became a client of the most notorious dope doctor in the sport. Imagine what Merckx could have done if he had been drugged by Dr. Ferrari.

No. Bartali yes, Hinault yes.

 

[pmcg76]

Merckx: 5 Giros, 5 TdFs, 1 Vuelta, 3 Worlds, hour record, 19 major classics

Armstrong: 7 Tours, 1 World, 2 major classics.

Lance won 2 major classics, must have been sleeping to miss them...........oh he was talking about San Sebastian and Fleche Wallone. That is a stretch of the major classics dispora.

 

[red_flanders]

Lance won 2 major classics, must have been sleeping to miss them...........oh he was talking about San Sebastian and Fleche Wallone. That is a stretch of the major classics dispora.

Yeah, LOL. San Sebastian is a classic. I don't know what a major classic is, unless it's a monument, and SS isn't.

Fleche is a semi-classic. Great win, but not a classic.

Armstrong's palmares compare more to an Indurain, but of course even Indurain has a farmore well-rounded palmares, while obviously having 2 less TdF wins. They share a 3rd in the Giro and San Sebastian. Indurain adds 2 Giro wins, Criterium International, 2 wins in the Dauphine, 2 wins in Paris-Nice, TT worlds, and an absolute host of smaller stage races.

Merckx's palmares is incomparable. 500 WINS in ~1500 races. Not placings. Wins. In a third of races entered. Staggering.

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, LOL. San Sebastian is a classic. I don't know what a major classic is, unless it's a monument, and SS isn't.

Fleche is a semi-classic. Great win, but not a classic.

Armstrong's palmares compare more to an Indurain, but of course even Indurain has a farmore well-rounded palmares, while obviously having 2 less TdF wins. They share a 3rd in the Giro and San Sebastian. Indurain adds 2 Giro wins, Criterium International, 2 wins in the Dauphine, 2 wins in Paris-Nice, TT worlds, and an absolute host of smaller stage races.

Merckx's palmares is incomparable. 500 WINS in ~1500 races. Not placings. Wins. In a third of races entered. Staggering.

Yes but a certain person is arguing they are equal because they are from different eras and Merckx would be nowhere if he was around today. Hard to believe but such a person is here spouting this stuff.

In fairness, I think Indurain and Lance are evenly matched in terms of palmares, tough call.

 

[flicker]

Bartali is the best of all!!

Sixth in the list and he lost his best 5-6 years due to WWII.

Take out Eddie's wins from 1970-1975 for a fair comparison!!

OK so I'm flaming a bit but Bartali never gets a mention in these discussions (Coppi does ) but his record was damn impressive and the bit about WWII is true!

What is more interesting about Gino Bartali is that he was a clean rider while alas Fausto and some of Ginos compatirots were not. That makes Bartali an even greater champion to me.

 

[buckwheat]

Armstrong is not even fit to clean Merckx's BALLS

Which just goes to show what a cancer Pharmstrong really is.

Because Pharmstrong has so much money/power the tragedy is that Merckx has been reduced to tossing Prance's salad.

I guess everybody has to get paid.

The fact that this kind of nonsense thread is even taking place is indicative of the Alice in Wonderland world that Pharmstrong, Ferrari, and other degenerates have created in pro cycling.

When Pharmstrong returned, any wishful thinking by the others that they could possibly compete clean was swept away. The others can't even speak what they know to be the truth because of this vindictive ***.

 

[Oldman]

Which just goes to show what a cancer Pharmstrong really is.

Because Pharmstrong has so much money/power the tragedy is that Merckx has been reduced to tossing Prance's salad.

I guess everybody has to get paid.

The fact that this kind of nonsense thread is even taking place is indicative of the Alice in Wonderland world that Pharmstrong, Ferrari, and other degenerates have created in pro cycling.

When Pharmstrong returned, any wishful thinking by the others that they could possibly compete clean was swept away. The others can't even speak what they know to be the truth because of this vindictive ***.

There is still hope. How many podium places and medals have been passed down after the final toll has been taken. Granted, the really skillful will get by for now but keep the faith...Bartali and Eddie's legacy is still with us.

 

[craig1985]

Yeah, LOL. San Sebastian is a classic. I don't know what a major classic is, unless it's a monument, and SS isn't.

Fleche is a semi-classic. Great win, but not a classic.

Armstrong's palmares compare more to an Indurain, but of course even Indurain has a farmore well-rounded palmares, while obviously having 2 less TdF wins. They share a 3rd in the Giro and San Sebastian. Indurain adds 2 Giro wins, Criterium International, 2 wins in the Dauphine, 2 wins in Paris-Nice, TT worlds, and an absolute host of smaller stage races.

Merckx's palmares is incomparable. 500 WINS in ~1500 races. Not placings. Wins. In a third of races entered. Staggering.

That is pretty much it for me (although I disagree about Fleche), even when you take out the doping and how much Ferrari has contributed to Lance's career, his name should not still not in the league of Merckx or Hinault.

 

[Inner Peace]

Different times and different standards: How was drug use in sports viewed then as it is compared to now? Certainly less reprehensible. We now have the benefit of research about doping and they didn't. The difference is we now know just how much a difference PEDs play in the outcome of a race moreso than we did then. Now the only alternative is, since we can't improve ourselves more than holistic health, we improve the equipment we employ. I mean lenticular wheel discs that create negative draft??? That sounds like performance enhancement to me...

Hmmm, interesting point of view, thanks for the clarification tho.

Personally, the bolded part is a tough question, because perhaps the view of doping has been the same for 50 years. The true fans condemn it, and the cyclists/managers enforce the code of silence becoz 'everybody else is doing it'.

Of course, Merckx's alleged stimulants do not compare to Armstrong's alleged EPO use in terms of the effect on the body, but EPO was not around for Merckx, so perhaps doping really is just doping...

What if Merckx was also a 'good responder' (to stimulants) like Armstrong was described to be (to EPO) ?

Just a rhetorical question really, but it makes you think about whether or not doping in the 60s/70s and doping in the 90s/2000s really are the same or different standards... I think the standards are the same, and by standards I mean 'what's expected of you as a pro-cyclist'

 

[pmcg76]

Hmmm, interesting point of view, thanks for the clarification tho.

Personally, the bolded part is a tough question, because perhaps the view of doping has been the same for 50 years. The true fans condemn it, and the cyclists/managers enforce the code of silence becoz 'everybody else is doing it'.

Of course, Merckx's alleged stimulants do not compare to Armstrong's alleged EPO use in terms of the effect on the body, but EPO was not around for Merckx, so perhaps doping really is just doping...

What if Merckx was also a 'good responder' (to stimulants) like Armstrong was described to be (to EPO) ?

Just a rhetorical question really, but it makes you think about whether or not doping in the 60s/70s and doping in the 90s/2000s really are the same or different standards... I think the standards are the same, and by standards I mean 'what's expected of you as a pro-cyclist'

I think the attitude towards doping has always been the same in cycling, the big difference is following the Festina affair in 98, it was laid bare for all the fans to see and forced the authorities to try and raise their game(a little) so the attitudes of we fans have changed.

Because we know now for sure that it is real, we judge the modern riders more harshly too. There is also the factor that the 90s is where the drugs really made a huge difference.