Who is the most versatile rider ?

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scholar said:
Of the men riding at the moment: Cancellara, Evans, Kwiatkowski, Valverde, Wiggins.

I think part the question of who's the most versatile depends on whether versatility refers to the ability to in a range of different kinds of races and on a variety of parcours, or to the ability to win races in different ways.

(Note that by neither definition does either Sagan or Gerrans count as versatile.)
The kind of stages/races Sagan has won:

Hard uphill finish (Chieti)
Cobbled classics (GW and E3)
Flat sprints (numerous, including one in the Tour)
Two (or more?) prologues
Mountain stages (Tour de Suisse)
Hilly stages (the hard one in T-A '13 as a prime example)

What more do you want? He can sprint and he can win solo and win in a TT as well.

Edit: How many can win a flat bunch sprint in a good field and also win from the bunch a stage like this:



That climb is 12.2 km @ 6.3% average, clearly with some harder sections.

What does the stage result tell you regarding what kind of riders that stage suited?

 
The issue saying Sagan, is he hasn't won a GT, a stage race or a monument yet. He's 3rd tier in versatility in my eyes. Breadth of success is key to versatility in this argument and Sagan doesn't have it.
 
Oct 23, 2011
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Netserk said:
The kind of stages/races Sagan has won:

Hard uphill finish (Chieti)
Cobbled classics (GW and E3)
Flat sprints (numerous, including one in the Tour)
Two (or more?) prologues
Mountain stages (Tour de Suisse)
Hilly stages (the hard one in T-A '13 as a prime example)

What more do you want? He can sprint and he can win solo and win in a TT as well.
Of course Sagan is among the most versatile riders in the current peleton, but you're giving him a bit too much credit. Almost every sprinter can do well in prologues. You shouldn't give him credit for being able to TT when he only does well in prologues. :p

Also, the tour of Suisse stage was amazing of course and it certainly proves he has amazing climbing skills for a sprinter, but just to make it clear to everybody; when you look at the result it's way too flattering for Sagan. There were like 10-15 people over the top and all the gaps were made on the descent and because of a crash. Still, amazing for Sagan to make it with the first 10-15 over the top on a 1st cat in the Tour de Suisse, though!
 
Maaaaaaaarten said:
Of course Sagan is among the most versatile riders in the current peleton, but you're giving him a bit too much credit. Almost every sprinter can do well in prologues. You shouldn't give him credit for being able to TT when he only does well in prologues. :p

Also, the tour of Suisse stage was amazing of course and it certainly proves he has amazing climbing skills for a sprinter, but just to make it clear to everybody; when you look at the result it's way too flattering for Sagan. There were like 10-15 people over the top and all the gaps were made on the descent and because of a crash. Still, amazing for Sagan to make it with the first 10-15 over the top on a 1st cat in the Tour de Suisse, though!
I shouldn't? How many sprinters can beat Cancellara on the Tour de Suisse Lugano prologue? How many can beat Cancellara on any prologue/ITT that takes more than 9 minutes?

EDIT:
Number of prologues Kittel has won as a pro: 0
Number of prologues Cavendish has won as a pro: 2 (longest was less than 2½ minutes...)
Number of prologues Greipel has won as a pro: 1 (amazing opposition in Turkey)
Number of prologues Kristoff has won as a pro: 0
Number of prologues Degenkolb has won as a pro: 0

It really is super common :rolleyes:
 
Jul 29, 2012
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Netserk said:
I shouldn't? How many sprinters can beat Cancellara on the Tour de Suisse Lugano prologue? How many can beat Cancellara on any prologue/ITT that takes more than 9 minutes?
You're giving Cancellara credit for something? Even if it's to upgrade sagan, i'm impressed
 
Oct 23, 2011
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Netserk said:
I shouldn't? How many sprinters can beat Cancellara on the Tour de Suisse Lugano prologue? How many can beat Cancellara on any prologue/ITT that takes more than 9 minutes?

EDIT:
Number of prologues Kittel has won as a pro: 0
Number of prologues Cavendish has won as a pro: 2 (longest was less than 2½ minutes...)
Number of prologues Greipel has won as a pro: 1 (amazing opposition in Turkey)
Number of prologues Kristoff has won as a pro: 0
Number of prologues Degenkolb has won as a pro: 0

It really is super common :rolleyes:
Okay, maybe I put it a bit too strong saying almost every sprinter can do well in prologues. But my point is, prologues are a bit of a different discipline from ITT's in general. There are people with poor ITT's who do reasonably well in prologues and there are people with amazing ITT skills can be quite mediocre at prologues. Prologues are often not so much about just ITT skills, but also about being explosive and having good bike handling skills. In a lot of prologues you can see a few sprinters, with otherwise horrendous TT skills, up there in the mix with the TTers. You can give Sagan credit for winning that prologue, which was indeed quite impressive. But concluding with something like Sagan can even win TT's is a bit deceiving.
 
Maaaaaaaarten said:
Okay, maybe I put it a bit too strong saying almost every sprinter can do well in prologues. But my point is, prologues are a bit of a different discipline from ITT's in general. There are people with poor ITT's who do reasonably well in prologues and there are people with amazing ITT skills can be quite mediocre at prologues. Prologues are often not so much about just ITT skills, but also about being explosive and having good bike handling skills. In a lot of prologues you can see a few sprinters, with otherwise horrendous TT skills, up there in the mix with the TTers. You can give Sagan credit for winning that prologue, which was indeed quite impressive. But concluding with something like Sagan can even win TT's is a bit deceiving.
And where did I do that?

In your head doesn't count ;)
 
I would not underestimate Sagan ITT skills. True is he had no reason to go "full power" in ITT so far, only in prologues. I am not telling he is good in it but he is probably not so bad either.

Looking at some of Cannondale results in TTT where he had to work hard tells me he is much better than people think. I would not be surprised at all if he will be in top 10 in Utrecht this year. :)

True is that Sagan desperately needs at least one "big win" this season. Lets see if Riis can make it happen this year.
 
Oct 23, 2011
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Netserk said:
And where did I do that?

In your head doesn't count ;)
ah you did literally say

Netserk said:
He can sprint and he can win solo and win in a TT as well.
(emphasis is mine)

Which of course I have to admit is technically a correct statement, because he did win a TT, but it wasn't the most typical of TT's. ;)

Also, just to answer this question:
Netserk said:
How many can beat Cancellara on any prologue/ITT that takes more than 9 minutes?
For what it's worth

Daniele Bennati, Tour of Qatar 2014, stage 3
Heinrich Haussler, Tour de Suisse 2013, stage 1
Robert Hunter, Tour of California 2010, stage 7 (I have to admit the results for this one are weird)

If we allow shorter than 9 minutes there's quite a bit more and there's also riders like Vicioso and Visconti - who are neither TT'rs nor sprinters - who have beaten Cancellara in TT's of more than 9 minutes. :p
 
Netserk said:
Kwiatkowski by a mile. The things he is worst at is sprinting and high mountains and he's still quite decent in both.

Is the currently active rider with the biggest chance of getting anywhere near of winning all the five monuments.

Edit: Valverde lacks power on the flat. No chance in the first three monuments or a long flat ITT.
PaPong said:
Kwiatkowski rises

sprint: Tour of Britain 2014 stage 4

time trial: victory on the stage Volta ao Algarve (beats Tony Martin!) and prologue Tour de Romandie

mountains: some 2nd places on the Basque Country (behind Contador and Valverde)

Be patient -boss Omega Team Patrick Lefevere said to Kwiatkowski

actually Contador could fight for top 3 on the classics if he wanted :rolleyes:
You two are spot on, 100% agree.
 
Kwibus said:
Yes and no. He didn't really show us much, besides the fact he doesn't s*ck at cobbles. That's not good though. I hope he tries some Flander cobbles again though.
I don't know about Valverdes calendar for 2015, but we will see Kwiatkowski at Gent-Wevelgem this year.
 
Oct 5, 2014
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Akuryo said:
I don't know about Valverdes calendar for 2015, but we will see Kwiatkowski at Gent-Wevelgem this year.
Kwiatkowski shedule 2015:

Tour de San Luis
Volta ao Algarve
Paris-Nice
Milan-San Remo
Gandawa-Wevelgem
Tour of the Basque Country
Amstel Gold Race
Fleche Wallonne
Liege-Bastogne-Liege
Tour de Suisse
Tour de France



He will not stand on the line start in Strade Bianche, Tirreno-Adriatico, Tour de Romandie and Criterium du Dauphine
I do not know about Tour de Flanders :confused: and time after TDF
 
PaPong said:
Kwiatkowski shedule 2015:

Tour de San Luis
Volta ao Algarve
Paris-Nice
Milan-San Remo
Gandawa-Wevelgem
Tour of the Basque Country
Amstel Gold Race
Fleche Wallonne
Liege-Bastogne-Liege
Tour de Suisse
Tour de France



He will not stand on the line start in Strade Bianche, Tirreno-Adriatico, Tour de Romandie and Criterium du Dauphine
I do not know about Tour de Flanders :confused: and time after TDF
Nice may be almost a free win with everyone focusing on Tirreno
 
Jul 29, 2012
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Kwiat, amazing what he can do.

Gilbert is pretty talented too but he can't ITT and sucks at MTF.

Sagan has the same issue but his sprint is obviously better.

Valverde comes too close but limited at ITT.
 
Jun 3, 2012
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Nibali is my vote.

Does well on the cobbles - Tour '14
Climbs with the climbers (Tour '14)
Time Trials well.
Can hang with the puncheurs (Worlds '13)
Descends with the best
Can win a grand tour or one day classic. (Tour, LBL)
Wins smaller stage races (Tirreno '13)
Does well in bad weather (Tour '14 cobbles stage, Tirreno)

Only thing Valverde beats him in is a sprint.
 
BigMac said:
There's Costa, Tejay, Peraud, Majka, Aru perhaps. It's a harder parcours this year, with at least one mountain finish.
I haven't looked at the route yet but I don't think Aru or Majka or Tejay can beat Kwiatko in a route like last season. It takes a good MTF or good climbs to kill Kwiatko specially if there's a medium length TT. We'll see :)
Miburo said:
Gilbert is pretty talented too but he can't ITT and sucks at MTF.
Gilbert was Belgian TT champion. He can TT, he simply doesn't have a reason to.
 
Sep 28, 2014
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I think riders like Boom, Evans, Sagan (again), Peraud, Wiggins and Stybar at least need a mention for their succeses in other forms of bikeracing, such as cyclocross, MTB and track.
 
TourOfTexas said:
Nibali is my vote.

Does well on the cobbles - Tour '14
Climbs with the climbers (Tour '14)
Time Trials well.
Can hang with the puncheurs (Worlds '13)
Descends with the best
Can win a grand tour or one day classic. (Tour, LBL)
Wins smaller stage races (Tirreno '13)
Does well in bad weather (Tour '14 cobbles stage, Tirreno)

Only thing Valverde beats him in is a sprint.
Liege Bastogne Liege? He hasn't won that...
 

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