Who was the real winner of Flanders?

[Willy_Voet]

Lots of folks amazed with Cancellara's performance = charged? But Boonen was trading pulls, too = charged? Gilbert won a sprinters' race and a climbers' race last year = charged?

So who was the 1st guy to cross the line who is clean?

 

[Ferminal]

Hwsnbn

...

 

[Anonymous]

I was just coming over here to start a thread.

 

[wattage]

I was almost expecting a thread about Fabians performance in RVV. I guess there are alot of ppl who say that Fabian is all about raw talent but I don't know. I mean Riis is running the whole show at Saxo Bank and the guy definitely knows what it takes to win, and the whole team has connections to Cecchini.

44K to go and he went with Boonen. Thats sick. That was some serious effort that he made today.

 

[BroDeal]

So who was the 1st guy to cross the line who is clean?

Some guy in 30th to 40th place.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Lots of folks amazed with Cancellara's performance = charged? But Boonen was trading pulls, too = charged? Gilbert won a sprinters' race and a climbers' race last year = charged?

So who was the 1st guy to cross the line who is clean?

They are still waiting for him to finish.

 

[auscyclefan94]

They are still waiting for him to finish.

lance?????

 

[Digger]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article539978.ece

 

[burritogirl]

you guys are pathetic. why is it that the folks who don't win always accuse? somebody is always going to be faster, someone is always going to win.

 

[ianfra]

Who was the real winnEr of Flanders

I think the original (badly spelt) question was offensive to the 9th degree. There is no evidence that Cancellara or the other top finishers were other than clean. These guys are tested more than in any other sport and I believe the inside observers who now assert that 95% of the pro riders are non-users. It is more likely to find drug abuse amongst the domestiques who struggle to hold onto their contracts. Cancellera clean. Yes! 100% unless and until testers prove otherwise.

 

[Digger]

I think the original (badly spelt) question was offensive to the 9th degree. There is no evidence that Cancellara or the other top finishers were other than clean. These guys are tested more than in any other sport and I believe the inside observers who now assert that 95% of the pro riders are non-users. It is more likely to find drug abuse amongst the domestiques who struggle to hold onto their contracts. Cancellera clean. Yes! 100% unless and until testers prove otherwise.

What's your position within the UCI? PR?

 

[El Imbatido]

It is more likely to find drug abuse amongst the domestiques who struggle to hold onto their contracts.

So you are saying that the domestiques/guys who cant keep up/lower level guys are taking drugs to keep up with the clean winners. Ok........plenty of logic in that

Cancellera clean. Yes! 100% unless and until testers prove otherwise.

So Ullrich innocent because he never got caught, Basso innocent because he never got caught, Riis innocent because he never got caught, Oscar Sevilla innocent because he never got caught, Franceso Mancebo innocent because he never got caught etc, etc. You see the pattern emerging.

Mate, i want to believe (x-files reference there anybody??) that everyone who has never tested + is innocent but the history indicates against that. I'm not going to go out and say: Yes, Cancellara is definitely doped but the guy who rides away from everyone with 40km to go, well it raises some suspicions. I hope for a much cleaner sport in recent years and i love Cancellara as a rider but remember alot of good, nice people (Roberto Heras comes to mind) have have drank from the medicine cabinet.

Like i said: I want to believe , but i'm not that naive

 

[Anonymous]

you guys are pathetic. why is it that the folks who don't win always accuse? somebody is always going to be faster, someone is always going to win.

Have you followed cycling for very long?

 

[wattage]

I would have to love too see that power file from Fabians SRM. Obviously they won't publish that. Some freak watts. Fabian did final 10K at 47.7km/h and that was with ease, if wind didn't have effect that would require about 470watts. And that's after 250Ks. Fabian must have one insane threshold power.

When Lance was putting out close to 500 watts he was considered to be doped up to his eyeballs, but when Fabian does it he's clean. As for their weights, LA was never under 74kg, and Fabian is now leaner than ever, very close to LA weight. Not much difference.

I didn't buy Fabians performance at Mendrisio, and I don't buy it now either.

 

[Race Radio]

There is no evidence that Cancellara or the other top finishers were other than clean.

None?

Dario Frigo explained that Fassa Bortolo had an organized doping program, I guess Fabian was the only rider not to participate?

So when Fabian worked with Dr. Cecchini he was only using him for interval workouts? Unlike his other doping customers (Riis, Dekker, Hamilton. Jaksche, Richard, Petacchi, Bugno, Ulrich, Casero, Basso)?

 

[ChrisE]

It is sad thats a thread like this takes place after a performance like that, but this has an interesting subtext.

What will it take for the presumption of cleanliness to be the norm, instead of the other way around?

 

[Digger]

It is sad thats a thread like this takes place after a performance like that, but this has an interesting subtext.

What will it take for the presumption of cleanliness to be the norm, instead of the other way around?[/QUOTE]

It'll never ever happen. As much as I hate when people say 'relax, it's only entertainment, let them dope', I believe that unfortunately cheating pays too well. If you don't have a conscience, and we all know how difficult it is to get caught, why not?

 

[fatandfast]

It is sad thats a thread like this takes place after a performance like that, but this has an interesting subtext.

What will it take for the presumption of cleanliness to be the norm, instead of the other way around?

The answer to your question is a knowledge of the sport and it's rules. Cancellara has won or placed lots already this year and is tested just for showing up. Yes to all of us his jump was super human and the way he put his head down after loosing contact with Boonen was like a comic book or some kind of Hollywood special effects. the guy is a great racer and a true talent. All the sour people that put all of cycling through a drug filter can't ruin an amazing ride by a great champion. The winner of every race is tested,with the way Cancellara rode he will be on a first name basis with the guy or girl holding his sample cup.

 

[skidmark]

None?

Dario Frigo explained that Fassa Bortolo had an organized doping program, I guess Fabian was the only rider not to participate?

So when Fabian worked with Dr. Cecchini he was only using him for interval workouts? Unlike his other doping customers (Riis, Dekker, Hamilton. Jaksche, Richard, Petacchi, Bugno, Ulrich, Casero, Basso)?

This response (and Chris E's below) raise interesting points for thought... RR, I think that our naive friend was referring to the race today when he said 'there's no evidence that he was anything other than clean'. You are referring to Fassa Bartolo, which he has not been on for what, six years now? And Cecchini was, I think, at least 4-5, right? So, what is the assumption you're running under, 'because there's definite anecdotal evidence that he was involved in doping many years ago, I will assume he is now until proven otherwise'?

The only reason I can think that anyone would have to not assume that is if there had been a change in the way the peloton thinks about doping, through either fear of being caught and the negative publicity associated with it, or whatever. Obviously, many people don't believe that's happened. I don't really either, but I don't feel like I know enough to go tossing my opinions around.

How can we ever tell as viewers if there is less doping going on?

 

[erader]

It is sad thats a thread like this takes place after a performance like that, but this has an interesting subtext.

What will it take for the presumption of cleanliness to be the norm, instead of the other way around?

the way i see it doping is just another discipline like TTing or climbing. i accept it as part of the sport and i assume "everyone" does it.

i don't need to think that professional cycling is clean or is headed in that direction to enjoy the sport.

ed rader

 

[Digger]

The answer to your question is a knowledge of the sport and it's rules. Cancellara has won or placed lots already this year and is tested just for showing up. Yes to all of us his jump was super human and the way he put his head down after loosing contact with Boonen was like a comic book or some kind of Hollywood special effects. the guy is a great racer and a true talent. All the sour people that put all of cycling through a drug filter can't ruin an amazing ride by a great champion. The winner of every race is tested,with the way Cancellara rode he will be on a first name basis with the guy or girl holding his sample cup.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...ers-Masking-agent-visible-tester-knocked.html

"I was sat at home massaging The Cream, which is the drugs masking agent, into my arms when the knock on the door came.
opened the door and an official-looking man spoke His words chilled me to the bone. We walked into the lounge; the tube of THG lay on top of the television and the faint smell of almonds permeated the air.


He noticed my reaction and said: ‘Don’t worry, son, it’s only a little urine.’
I had taken EPO nine times that month and yet opened the door to someone I had never seen before."

He passed the test.
Now, does this not give you some indication of how worthless testing often is. As Victor Conte says, it's like taking candy from a child, is passing a test.

The biggest drug busts in the sports history have not been positive tests...but police raids. So, if it wasn't for the police, guys like Ullrich, Basso et al would never have been caught. Yet people here seem to have total faith in the testing procedures.

 

[Race Radio]

This response (and Chris E's below) raise interesting points for thought... RR, I think that our naive friend was referring to the race today when he said 'there's no evidence that he was anything other than clean'. You are referring to Fassa Bartolo, which he has not been on for what, six years now? And Cecchini was, I think, at least 4-5, right? So, what is the assumption you're running under, 'because there's definite anecdotal evidence that he was involved in doping many years ago, I will assume he is now until proven otherwise'?

The only reason I can think that anyone would have to not assume that is if there had been a change in the way the peloton thinks about doping, through either fear of being caught and the negative publicity associated with it, or whatever. Obviously, many people don't believe that's happened. I don't really either, but I don't feel like I know enough to go tossing my opinions around.

How can we ever tell as viewers if there is less doping going on?

I see

So Cancellara was doping 4 years ago but it was only when he stopped that he became one the best riders in the world?

Regardless of the methods he used it was an impressive ride today. Beyond his amazing power his bike handling is super impressive. I have not heard of anything that can help with that.

 

[ChrisE]

This response (and Chris E's below) raise interesting points for thought... RR, I think that our naive friend was referring to the race today when he said 'there's no evidence that he was anything other than clean'. You are referring to Fassa Bartolo, which he has not been on for what, six years now? And Cecchini was, I think, at least 4-5, right? So, what is the assumption you're running under, 'because there's definite anecdotal evidence that he was involved in doping many years ago, I will assume he is now until proven otherwise'?

The only reason I can think that anyone would have to not assume that is if there had been a change in the way the peloton thinks about doping, through either fear of being caught and the negative publicity associated with it, or whatever. Obviously, many people don't believe that's happened. I don't really either, but I don't feel like I know enough to go tossing my opinions around.

How can we ever tell as viewers if there is less doping going on?

Most of the evidence is from the past, as if nobody can ever change or that they have the ability to excel once clean. People do move on and change....I have a buddy that used to drink heavily and now hasn't for 1.5 years. Is he drunk somewhere today? I highly doubt it. Painting Cancellara as guilty just because of Fassa Bartolo cheapens the argument and proof, IMO, but it is engrained in our POV.

I think most of us are so jaded from the past that it makes us skeptical when we see what we saw today. If I had to bet I would say he was on something, and feeling that way is unfortunate. No matter what happens in the sport to clean it up, alot of us will always be skeptical.

 

[ChrisE]

I see

So Cancellara was doping 4 years ago but it was only when he stopped that he became one the best riders in the world?

Regardless of the methods he used it was an impressive ride today. Beyond his amazing power his bike handling is super impressive. I have not heard of anything that can help with that.

It's possible that the best riders in the world are not doping as much as in the past. You seem to think the doping/performance line is a constant one.

 

[Digger]

Most of the evidence is from the past, as if nobody can ever change or that they have the ability to excel once clean. People do move on and change....I have a buddy that used to drink heavily and now hasn't for 1.5 years. Is he drunk somewhere today? I highly doubt it. Painting Cancellara as guilty just because of Fassa Bartolo cheapens the argument and proof, IMO, but it is engrained in our POV.

I think most of us are so jaded from the past that it makes us skeptical when we see what we saw today. If I had to bet I would say he was on something, and feeling that way is unfortunate. No matter what happens in the sport to clean it up, alot of us will always be skeptical.

Well, how plausible is it to be better clean, than with the use of doping, when we knw the percentage gains derived from blood doping and EPO use? And this isn't Allen Lim fantasy land.