Who was the real winner of Flanders?

[Oldman]

It's possible that the best riders in the world are not doping as much as in the past. You seem to think the doping/performance line is a constant one.

Tyler Farrar is as likely clean as anyone at the front, to respond to the original question. It is painful to follow up a race result this closely with accusations even for us skeptics. I haven't seen the broadcast yet, thought.

 

[Race Radio]

It's possible that the best riders in the world are not doping as much as in the past. You seem to think the doping/performance line is a constant one.

No, I have actually said in the past that I believe that doping is not as prevalent as it was in the past allowing clean riders to win races.

There was a poster who claimed that there was no evidence that Cancellera doped, when indeed there is plenty. If he did or did not had no effect my watching of the race but I do think it is silly to pretend it is not possible. It would be hard to say that after leaving a team with an organized program and a doping doctor who has had many riders test positive that Fabian's huge improvement was all clean

 

[fatandfast]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...ers-Masking-agent-visible-tester-knocked.html

"I was sat at home massaging The Cream, which is the drugs masking agent, into my arms when the knock on the door came.
opened the door and an official-looking man spoke His words chilled me to the bone. We walked into the lounge; the tube of THG lay on top of the television and the faint smell of almonds permeated the air.


He noticed my reaction and said: ‘Don’t worry, son, it’s only a little urine.’
I had taken EPO nine times that month and yet opened the door to someone I had never seen before."

He passed the test.
Now, does this not give you some indication of how worthless testing often is. As Victor Conte says, it's like taking candy from a child, is passing a test.

The biggest drug busts in the sports history have not been positive tests...but police raids. So, if it wasn't for the police, guys like Ullrich, Basso et al would never have been caught. Yet people here seem to have total faith in the testing procedures.

Cheap shots 'O"plenty. Track and field can't even test for a racers sex! They have chicks w dix winning and still can't confirm if a person is a boy or girl. World Championships,National Champ and Olympic Champ and all these people can't detect some rub on cream? Cancellara has spent years becoming a great racer. The extent that people will go to once on the outside to pick everything apart is disgusting. Track and field even at the highest level is fringe.Comparing the 2 sports and testing procedures are a reach. The quotes you gave are not from Ullrich,Basso, Ricco or Delgado even Fignon you may want to get a drug use quote from a WWF standout or NFL lineman as long as each sport has something in common. When T&F or girls softball have anything to do with pro cycling we are all fu_kt.

 

[Race Radio]

Cheap shots 'O"plenty. Track and field can't even test for a racers sex! They have chicks w dix winning and still can't confirm if a person is a boy or girl. World Championships,National Champ and Olympic Champ and all these people can't detect some rub on cream? Cancellara has spent years becoming a great racer. The extent that people will go to once on the outside to pick everything apart is disgusting. Track and field even at the highest level is fringe.Comparing the 2 sports and testing procedures are a reach. The quotes you gave are not from Ullrich,Basso, Ricco or Delgado even Fignon you may want to get a drug use quote from a WWF standout or NFL lineman as long as each sport has something in common. When T&F or girls softball have anything to do with pro cycling we are all fu_kt.

Track and Field is a larger sport world wide, has more tests then Cycling, and they are both run under the WADA code.

 

[Willy_Voet]

I think the original (badly spelt) question was offensive to the 9th degree. There is no evidence that Cancellara or the other top finishers were other than clean. These guys are tested more than in any other sport and I believe the inside observers who now assert that 95% of the pro riders are non-users. It is more likely to find drug abuse amongst the domestiques who struggle to hold onto their contracts. Cancellera clean. Yes! 100% unless and until testers prove otherwise.

1. You failed Intardnet Humor 101.
2. 'spelt' is a type of grain, 'spelled' is the past tense of 'to spell'
3. You spelled/spelt Cancellara/Cancellera two different ways in your post.
4. I am offended that you place all the blame on domestiques. It's easy to blame the workers, eh? Typical bourgeoisie attitude.

 

[Oldman]

Track and Field is a larger sport world wide, has more tests then Cycling, and they are both run under the WADA code.

T&F federations may be run under the WADA code but are they legitimately trying to catch anyone? Not speaking for Fat n' Fast but if they are; they are failing as well as the UCI.

We're on a general topic again, though.

 

[Digger]

Cheap shots 'O"plenty. Track and field can't even test for a racers sex! They have chicks w dix winning and still can't confirm if a person is a boy or girl. World Championships,National Champ and Olympic Champ and all these people can't detect some rub on cream? Cancellara has spent years becoming a great racer. The extent that people will go to once on the outside to pick everything apart is disgusting. Track and field even at the highest level is fringe.Comparing the 2 sports and testing procedures are a reach. The quotes you gave are not from Ullrich,Basso, Ricco or Delgado even Fignon you may want to get a drug use quote from a WWF standout or NFL lineman as long as each sport has something in common. When T&F or girls softball have anything to do with pro cycling we are all fu_kt.

Most of your post is not worthy of a response. It is so ignorant.

Do you accept tht Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Jaksche doped?

 

[fruit bars with eyes]

a) cancellara is the real winner, unless you want to scratch merckx anquetil kelly moser museeuw armstrong et al from the records - great ride
b) i think this forum needs to encourage change as to what counts as 'evidence' for le dopage: no point in using the testing because so many dopers have tested negative so often- (this is fact) instead, we need a more probabilistic, subjective, moral set of judgements- so, any rider who shakes hands with BR on crossing the line 1k ahead of the belgians in Flanders is guilty - not by the laws of the UCI or the french courts or the naive on here, but by the laws of the 'don't shake BR by the hand at the ronde and then expect to be unconditionally praised as if were all stupid'

 

[Nicoper]

Innocent until proven guilty, it's simple as that,
or we can round whole pelaton and burn them alive, cycling inquisition.

Btw, even if thirty of todays top finishers doped best man won again

 

[maratsafin]

my tour of flanders

hi all

so there I was reading 'cycling weekly' about doing the Tour Of Flanders bike sportive. A race full of history and I googled it, 5 mins later and an impulse purchase was made. on friday I found my way to bruges via eurostar and onto the hotel cassle bergh both highly recommended.

opened my bike and found that my headset had come apart! bit of a nightmare trying to find a bike shop open in an unfamiliar town at 5.45pm on good friday but fluked it. then
took my bike for a spin in bruges on friday and thought these cobbles aren't too bad. felt in good shape, ate well and off to bed.

woke up early to eat and it was pouring and the flags were flapping...........er great only
255km of wind rain hills and cobbles to go. 100's of bikers all anxious to sign in and ge off quickly out of the cold. got captured by belgian radio who tried to give me the impression that it was complete madness to do 'flanders' on my own. the penny had already dropped and realised it was important to find some friends(!) to ride with or the wind would just do me in.

found a bunch of fellow londoners and got to first feed. rain cape on and off all day.
worst part for me was the first 50Km to osstende. so windy and hardly anyone working together effectively. when we hooked back inland the wind was mainly to the side and with the showers made it hard work. took care to eat, drink, pee, rest when required but often co-incided with very good feed stations.

having french and enough spanish allowed me to tag in and out of groups as needed making sure I did my turn on the front. the only issue really was both my knees started aching about 140km (probably because saddle mispositioned). blagged a couple of painkillers at a feed station and on I went. got lucky a few times, missing crashes in front of me and cars (oops).

now those cobbles.........the cobbles on the course are way, way different to the ones in bruges. you've got big cobbles with wheel sized gaps inbetween that could be a worm hole that takes you into a different dimention (e.g. the nearest hospital). so much rain had made the cobbles very greasy, difficult almost impossible to get out of the saddle at all. that's why it favours strong guys who can push that gear round rather than pedal floaters such as contador. I appreciated every gram of my 82kgs but always kept the cadence 55+ with 90+ on the flats.

however did all the climbs except patenberg, busy so had to get off and the muur which I totally messed up forgeting the 2nd part beyond the little square - blew up big style. did koppenberg by waiting for a clear run at it (and a very helpful big push from a very helpful big dutchman) and all the others including getting 2nd wind and dropping my group on the last climb the bosberg.

tagged onto a pair of local belgians did the last 20km or so back into ninove, by which time it was dark. hard, hard day took me 12hrs with stops but got my card checked so happy. blagged a ride off some more lovely belgians back to bruges from ninove as there were no buses left.

finally got back to bruges, showered and ate myself silly on 'chips with fremish stew' (which could have been horsemeat which I love by the way). clean, fed, watered in a very comfy bed with 'match of the day' on the hotel tv - as near to bliss as possible!

right that's flanders done, next year paris roubaix or milan san remo!!!!!

for you tecnocrats;- used kuota kom with dura ace 7900 53/38 13/27 mavic r-sys ssc and continental 4000gp (NO PUNCTURES!!!!)

take care all,

marat

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Innocent until proven guilty, it's simple as that,
or we can round whole pelaton and burn them alive, cycling inquisition.

Btw, even if thirty of todays top finishers doped best man won again

So Valverdes is innocent, right? (never failed a drug test)

 

[Race Radio]

hi all

so there I was reading 'cycling weekly' about doing the Tour Of Flanders bike sportive. A race full of history and I googled it, 5 mins later and an impulse purchase was made. on friday I found my way to bruges via eurostar and onto the hotel cassle bergh both highly recommended.

opened my bike and found that my headset had come apart! bit of a nightmare trying to find a bike shop open in an unfamiliar town at 5.45pm on good friday but fluked it. then
took my bike for a spin in bruges on friday and thought these cobbles aren't too bad. felt in good shape, ate well and off to bed.

woke up early to eat and it was pouring and the flags were flapping...........er great only
255km of wind rain hills and cobbles to go. 100's of bikers all anxious to sign in and ge off quickly out of the cold. got captured by belgian radio who tried to give me the impression that it was complete madness to do 'flanders' on my own. the penny had already dropped and realised it was important to find some friends(!) to ride with or the wind would just do me in.

found a bunch of fellow londoners and got to first feed. rain cape on and off all day.
worst part for me was the first 50Km to osstende. so windy and hardly anyone working together effectively. when we hooked back inland the wind was mainly to the side and with the showers made it hard work. took care to eat, drink, pee, rest when required but often co-incided with very good feed stations.

having french and enough spanish allowed me to tag in and out of groups as needed making sure I did my turn on the front. the only issue really was both my knees started aching about 140km (probably because saddle mispositioned). blagged a couple of painkillers at a feed station and on I went. got lucky a few times, missing crashes in front of me and cars (oops).

now those cobbles.........the cobbles on the course are way, way different to the ones in bruges. you've got big cobbles with wheel sized gaps inbetween that could be a worm hole that takes you into a different dimention (e.g. the nearest hospital). so much rain had made the cobbles very greasy, difficult almost impossible to get out of the saddle at all. that's why it favours strong guys who can push that gear round rather than pedal floaters such as contador. I appreciated every gram of my 82kgs but always kept the cadence 55+ with 90+ on the flats.

however did all the climbs except patenberg, busy so had to get off and the muur which I totally messed up forgeting the 2nd part beyond the little square - blew up big style. did koppenberg by waiting for a clear run at it (and a very helpful big push from a very helpful big dutchman) and all the others including getting 2nd wind and dropping my group on the last climb the bosberg.

tagged onto a pair of local belgians did the last 20km or so back into ninove, by which time it was dark. hard, hard day took me 12hrs with stops but got my card checked so happy. blagged a ride off some more lovely belgians back to bruges from ninove as there were no buses left.

finally got back to bruges, showered and ate myself silly on 'chips with fremish stew' (which could have been horsemeat which I love by the way). clean, fed, watered in a very comfy bed with 'match of the day' on the hotel tv - as near to bliss as possible!

right that's flanders done, next year paris roubaix or milan san remo!!!!!

for you tecnocrats;- used kuota kom with dura ace 7900 53/38 13/27 mavic r-sys ssc and continental 4000gp (NO PUNCTURES!!!!)

take care all,

marat

Cool story, great job!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is sad thats a thread like this takes place after a performance like that, but this has an interesting subtext.

What will it take for the presumption of cleanliness to be the norm, instead of the other way around?

I agree and have said this before, it shows the complete lack of trust and faith most followers of Pro cycling have in the sport today.

The UCI has spent a whopping 13 million Euro ($17.5m) in just over 2 years on the Biological Passport -while it has potential- in its present form it is a PR piece - 5 riders have been 'suspended', yet no sanctions have been made against any of them!

I believe it will take another big police scandal and the removal of some of 'the old guard' within the sport - some UCI officials and DS's - before there is a proper change in how the sport is run.

 

[Digger]

AS: So do you believe the UCI is actually working counter to the anti-doping movement?

DW: Well, in certain respects it wants to be seen as being right at the front of it, with the whole biological passport stuff. And some of that is very good, although it hasn't produced any results yet. But in relation to having the Tour de France scandalized by doping stories, I think the UCI is at one with the ASO now, in that they both believe it is very bad for the sport to have major doping controversies like we've had over the last number of years, and they've decided that at whatever cost, that's not going to continue.

I don't believe that this year's Tour, or next year's Tour, or the Tour after that, we'll be finding big guys positive. I just don't believe it'll be happening.


http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/david-walsh
David Walsh interview in VelocityNation

 

[fatandfast]

Most of your post is not worthy of a response. It is so ignorant.

Do you accept tht Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Jaksche doped?

I will accept another cheap shot in a long stream of silliness. Are you painting with a crop duster or Zamboni? I am dumb because I think to associate a fantastic victory by Cancellara to some loose testing standards from track and field is a reach? Ivan Basso and Cancellara ?pulll your head out! Basso never won a world anything, he has never held a title of anything. To compare his Spring classic results with Fabian's record is probably were you started to go wrong. Ullrich has some results that are similar but never a classics man. What any of them have to do with track and field is still a mystery given the facts. The sport will continue with the dope dogs like yourself nipping at the heals of real champions. I am sure Cancellara wishes the sport that he excels in did not have a rich history of drug use. The pages of history he is making so far are drug free regardless if you are not reading them. Dwain Chambers may have an association with Cancellara...like cleaning his house or car, maybe Dwain speed walks Fabians dog but only for 60m indoors that were he is best. You and all the rest should be ashamed for your drug focus that you see everything through.Cancellara ober alles. Watching a great race and your instant reaction is drugs this or drugs that should lead you watch another sport for everybody's sake

 

[badboygolf16v]

Watching a great race and your instant reaction is drugs this or drugs that should lead you watch another sport for everybody's sake

History has taught you nothing!

 

[Digger]

I will accept another cheap shot in a long stream of silliness. Are you painting with a crop duster or Zamboni? I am dumb because I think to associate a fantastic victory by Cancellara to some loose testing standards from track and field is a reach? Ivan Basso and Cancellara ?pulll your head out! Basso never won a world anything, he has never held a title of anything. To compare his Spring classic results with Fabian's record is probably were you started to go wrong. Ullrich has some results that are similar but never a classics man. What any of them have to do with track and field is still a mystery given the facts. The sport will continue with the dope dogs like yourself nipping at the heals of real champions. I am sure Cancellara wishes the sport that he excels in did not have a rich history of drug use. The pages of history he is making so far are drug free regardless if you are not reading them. Dwain Chambers may have an association with Cancellara...like cleaning his house or car, maybe Dwain speed walks Fabians dog but only for 60m indoors that were he is best. You and all the rest should be ashamed for your drug focus that you see everything through.Cancellara ober alles. Watching a great race and your instant reaction is drugs this or drugs that should lead you watch another sport for everybody's sake

Ivan Basso won the Giro, second biggest Grand Tour, by ten minutes. Placed on the podium of the Tour de France twice.
Jan Ullrich, Olympic Champion...five times podium of Tour...mutliple stage winner...winner of Tour de France and Tour of Spain
Valverde....tour of Spain winner
So, if the testing is evidently so poor for these guys (no positives)...why do you think it's so good for your boy?

 

[Nicoper]

So Valverdes is innocent, right? (never failed a drug test)

He is banned in Italy, as a result of DNA testing, so he is guilty.
Legal systems work slowly and are on average correct, he will be banned till the end of this year.

 

[Race Radio]

He is banned in Italy, as a result of DNA testing, so he is guilty.
Legal systems work slowly and are on average correct, he will be banned till the end of this year.

But why would Ulrich and Armstrong be allowed to ride with similar, in some cases greater, evidence?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He is banned in Italy, as a result of DNA testing, so he is guilty.
Legal systems work slowly and are on average correct, he will be banned till the end of this year.

Well you said earlier..

Innocent until proven guilty, its as simple as that...

He has not been sanctioned by the RFEC, UCI or WADA, so by your earlier post it must mean he has the presumption of innocence.

Or would it be better to say it is a lot more complicated then that?

 

[ChrisE]

But why would Ulrich and Armstrong be allowed to ride with similar, in some cases greater, evidence?

I thought JU was banned??

LA? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Race Radio]

I thought JU was banned??

Nope, he can still race if he likes

 

[ChrisE]

Nope, he can still race if he likes

Thanks. I admit I don't follow things as closely as I should.

 

[karlboss]

I'm not one who thinks all the top riders dope, though it wouldn't surprise me at all. Curiously there are some unbelievable performances that look like that extra gear everyone talks about that makes me think maybe the majority of guys are cleanish, except the superhuman obviously.
I'm talking about Sella, Ricco, Basso at the Giro, Landis at the tour, and Cancellara today. He was super, just super. Boonen is in form and cancellara made him look like a kid struggling with cobbled climbs for the first time, he didn't even get out of the saddle to drop him, just rode away, didn't even seem to take effort to do it. Then as he rode away from Boonen, he was also riding away from Millar, Giblert and Leukemans who were working together. On top of it all it just looked easy, no suffering.
The guy was awesome and embarrassed a peloton under suspicion.

 

[180mmCrank]

I watched today and loved every minute of it. Boonen and Cancellara ripping up the field - just what a great bike race is meant to be about... I just enjoyed it. It's much the way I watch all bike racing.

If one of them gets caught for doping (I don't mean cocaine) then I will be gutted like many others. But I can't spend my time in 'did he or didn't he' type debates. I just don't see the point.

There are a bunch of people whose lives are dedicated to catching folks that cheat. I guess I believe they are doing the best they can - I know not everyone believes that but I'm not into conspiracy threories. I know they know more about catching cheats than I do!

Until then I will be watching replays of this classic race while thrashing out turbo sessions in my basement... until Paris Roubaix when I hope we get another classic...