Who would win, Cancellara or Cavendish

[Red Rick]

Come on, if you’ve ever tried to stay in the wheel of a stronger rider for any time you will know that Cavendish couldn’t do it, it’s closer to being on the front yourself than sitting in the middle of a bunch.
Even if Cavendish could hold on to him for 10k both going balls out I don’t know if he’d be able to sprint round him either

The problem here is that you're comparing a World Tour pro to some pubcrawling schmuck who can't hold on to his weekend warrior buddy. These guys go much faster, which makes the effect of drafting much bigger as well.

 

[Red Rick]

Cancellara can ride the best rouleurs in the world off his wheel

Few things more infuriating than people being confidently wrong on the internet.

The hypothetical is that it's flat, no hills and there's not been a hard race beforehand. Consistent tempo he wouldn't ride any WT pro of his wheel.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Few things more infuriating than people being confidently wrong on the internet.

The hypothetical is that it's flat, no hills and there's not been a hard race beforehand. Consistent tempo he wouldn't ride any WT pro of his wheel.

I don’t care how flat it is, Cancellara wouldn’t either. He’d just ride Cav off his wheel.
The race would be hard because he’s trying to ride him off his wheel, the whole 200k would be hard…
Consistent tempo? A tempo that Cav cant live with yes

 

[Pogacsa]

Think back to Stage 7 of the 1995 Tour de France.

Indurain attacked with Johan Bruyneel on his wheel. Indurain was stronger than Cancellara and Bruyneel was probably weaker than Cavendish. Indurain never came close to riding JB off his wheel, who also came around and outsprinted him.

Remember that power to overcome wind resistance is a cubic function ... the advantage drafting at the speeds pros travel is immense

 

[Charlyghoul]

Think back to Stage 7 of the 1995 Tour de France.

Indurain attacked with Johan Bruyneel on his wheel. Indurain was stronger than Cancellara and Bruyneel was probably weaker than Cavendish. Indurain never came close to riding JB off his wheel, who also came around and outsprinted him.

Remember that power to overcome wind resistance is a cubic function ... the advantage drafting at the speeds pros travel is immense

Bruyneel can do it for 200k? Indurain wasn’t trying to drop him either , just get a lead on the other favourites

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Think back to Stage 7 of the 1995 Tour de France.

Indurain attacked with Johan Bruyneel on his wheel. Indurain was stronger than Cancellara and Bruyneel was probably weaker than Cavendish. Indurain never came close to riding JB off his wheel, who also came around and outsprinted him.

Remember that power to overcome wind resistance is a cubic function ... the advantage drafting at the speeds pros travel is immense

It's true that at 50 kph the percentage of power saved is large. But how large exactly? Any reliable sources? I think Cav's sustained power (i.e. FTP) is easily 30 % lower than Cancellara's.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

A permanent stop start, lot's of tiny accelerations that will wear Cavendish eventually down is the only way I see this possible for Cancellara. I have no idea if doing 500 intervalls as a challenge is enough to overcome the draft advantage Cavendish gets.

However, people that are claiming that Cancellara would simply "ride him of his wheel TT mode" are having a laugh. At 50km/h behind such a bigger rider, the drafting is brutal, Cancellara would literally have to be +30% stronger in terms of wattage for that to happen and we just know that's not the case.

 

[Red Rick]

It's true that at 50 kph the percentage of power saved is large. But how large exactly? Any reliable sources? I think Cav's sustained power (i.e. FTP) is easily 30 % lower than Cancellara's.

Then why was Cavendish only like 12% slower in long Tour ITTs where Cancellara was going full gas and Cavendish had 0 reason to.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

It's true that at 50 kph the percentage of power saved is large. But how large exactly? Any reliable sources? I think Cav's sustained power (i.e. FTP) is easily 30 % lower than Cancellara's.

Pure power maybe slightly over 30% but Watts/CdA not even close to 30%.

Anyway, on the start-stop example: Cancellara stops so Cav rolls alongside. Now every time Cance accelerates Cav has time to jump in the wheel even if Cance weaves across the road (he can take a more direct line getting there). I don‘t think Cav gets tired of the start-stop games that easily because of the fast-twitch fibers.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Then why was Cavendish only like 12% slower in long Tour ITTs where Cancellara was going full gas and Cavendish had 0 reason to.

12% less velocity is over 30% less power at high speeds (the relation is cubic). Obviously 50 kph is not high enough speed for cubic component to completely dominate the formula (other stuff like rolling resistance are important as well) but we are likely looking at 20-30% power difference here.

 

[Red Rick]

12% less velocity is over 30% less power at high speeds (the relation is cubic). Obviously 50 kph is not high enough speed for cubic component to completely dominate the formula (other stuff like rolling resistance are important as well) but we are likely looking at 20-30% power difference here.

The relationship is not strictly cubic. Fluid dynamics are weird but many models simplify it to the square even if at high velocities it gets closer to cubed pro cycling isn't at velocities that high.

Like if the power difference was really 30% Cance would be winning MTTs or at least the sprinters would be OTL every mountain stage.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The relationship is not strictly cubic. Fluid dynamics are weird but many models simplify it to the square even if at high velocities it gets closer to cubed pro cycling isn't at velocities that high.

Like if the power difference was really 30% Cance would be winning MTTs or at least the sprinters would be OTL every mountain stage.

The power difference is probably closer to 20% indeed. It's not strictly cubic, as I already mentioned, some super-high velocities would be needed for that.