Why Does Floyd Landis Suck now?

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Mar 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Where is the evidence that hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised? When Star Trek Enterprise was cancelled, a group tried to raise money to fund a fifth season. They only managed to get a few tens of thousands of dollars. With the Hamilton debacle I cannot imagine that Landis was able to raise much money. I certainly have a hard time believing that there are more well heeled FLandis believers than devout, rabid Star Trek fans.

There are persistent rumors that his defense was funded by Armstrong as a way to attack the LNDD, which had found EPO in Armstrong's urine samples...

There is over $50,000 directly accounted for in this article and another $10,000 in tickets sales reported from just one Fairness Fund event.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=2875257
They had quite a few fundraising events. Perhaps Lance kicked in a big chunk of cash too. Landis spent a lot of money.
 
Epicycle said:
There is over $50,000 directly accounted for in this article and another $10,000 in tickets sales reported from just one Fairness Fund event.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=2875257
They had quite a few fundraising events. Perhaps Lance kicked in a big chunk of cash too. Landis spent a lot of money.

That is more than I would have guessed. Still the numbers do not add up. If a supposed $2M was spent on Landis' defense then I am skeptical the money could have been raised. Either the Lawyers have not been paid. They were willing to write off a lot of expense because the publicity helped their practice. Or Armstrong or someone similar kicked in a lot of money.

Right now Landis is supposedly sleeping on a friends couch. That cannot be too good for the ol' training.
 
BroDeal said:
No, our positions are quite a bit different. Even though I like Landis, I have no problem admitting that he doped.

Again your assumption is of the mark. I just re-read my posts to be sure, and I have not commented to date on what I believe in Floyd's case.

In the end, and if you trust Châtenay-Malabry, exogenous testosterone was found in Floyd's blood. My assumption would be that the infinitesimal amounts detected are residual from a Tour build up "program", rather than actual doping during the event. Which doesn't mean that he, or any other rider didn't do that as well. You just can't level accusations without some modicum of proof. That is what testing is for. But there is the rub.

If I knew you were guilty of murder, and I tampered with or planted evidence to insure your conviction, am I a hero or a criminal? Should I get a medal, or should I go to jail? When a lab and an administrative authority subvert testing protocols and procedures to catch a big fish, is justice being served or shattered like a window?

The system is rife with conflict of interest. Do labs have a vested interest in making sure that a B sample substantiates their A sample assessment? Hmmm... I don't know. Ask Iban Mayo what he thinks. Does the UCI in it's dual role as Promoter and Policeman of international cycling waffle weekly on issues of political expediency? Hmmm... I don't know. Ask Alejandro ValVerde in a week or two what he thinks.

Does WADA need doping? Hmmm... Do police need criminals to remain viable? Why does **** Pound continue (long after he should) to vilify cycling in the press? Because cycling has the most comprehensive testing? What the net result of more comprehensive testing? A higher number (but not percentage!) of athletes testing positive? And the net result of more doping positives is? Oh yeah... more funding for WADA. While their Mission Statement may espouse lofty ideals pertaining fairness to sport; it seems fairly transparent that nailing another Marion Jones is their primary focus and motivation.

So back to Floyd... Did he dope during the TdF? I have no idea, but I also don't see much credible evidence. Was he positive for testosterone? Yes! Did it play a part in Stage 17? I don't believe so, no more than any other riders Tour preparation "program". Was his cycling career ground into dust between the slow moving wheels of justice, and the conflicting interests of WADA, USADA, ASO, the UCI, the CAS, the Labs, and the Press? I'd have to say that's my conclusion.

In the U.S. legal system, the stinger in the tail of subversion of justice is that the accused go free. It may not always be right, but it is the lever that maintains the balance of process and abuse. It's supposed to keep the playing field level. Compromising your integrity and allowing the end to justify the means is the same crime for all parties concerned.

Did Floyd cheat?... Yeah probably. Did they cheat to catch him?... It's more than likely. Was justice served?... Not really. Did Floyd get screwed by the process?... In my opinion; Absolutely!

All of which brings us back to the original inane question; Why does Floyd Landis Suck now? It kind of makes me feel silly for getting sucked into this myopic, and self absorbed debate. Who the hell are we to even ask? Let alone decide.
 
VeloFidelis said:
All of which brings us back to the original inane question; Why does Floyd Landis Suck now? It kind of makes me feel silly for getting sucked into this myopic, and self absorbed debate. Who the hell are we to even ask? Let alone decide.

Um, we're the fans of cycling, you know the people who actually watch the races. You really are living in an alternate reality if you truly think the riders are above being questioned by the fans.
 
BikeCentric said:
Um, we're the fans of cycling, you know the people who actually watch the races. You really are living in an alternate reality if you truly think the riders are above being questioned by the fans.

Gee! I watch races too! Even get out and participate once in a while. Can I join your club too?

No... "What's up with Floyd Landis' results lately?", is questioning by fans. "Why does Floyd Landis Suck now?", is Bulls#!t
 
Mar 17, 2009
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While the Landis defence raised some good points about sloppy work at LNDD, the CIR test pretty much sealed it. He test doped, he got caught. I didn't want to believe it either, but the CIR results clearly pointed to exogenous test. Too bad he couldn't have stayed clean, there's always next year.

Did LA fund that defence? I'd be surprised if he didn't. And he got what he wanted - in depth discovery on the lab's operations. Once the legal team found they couldn't crack the CIR test results, they knew the case was lost. The rest was prepping for a future case, and some public mud in LNDD's eye.

One can't compare sports law to criminal law. Sports law is more like civil proceedings, where the burden of proof is not skewed entirely onto one side.

Why does Landis suck now? How well would you ride after that sort of fall from grace? In my own amateur pedaling, confidence is a prime weapon against fatigue and pain. He can't have a lot of that right now.
 
VeloFidelis said:
Gee! I watch races too! Even get out and participate once in a while. Can I join your club too?

No... "What's up with Floyd Landis' results lately?", is questioning by fans. "Why does Floyd Landis Suck now?", is Bulls#!t

Well allright then, it's clearly just a matter of viewpoint then. You seem to think that as fans we have the obligation to be deferential to the pros. I actually used to be but after watching so many of them get busted I am quite hesitant to put any of them on a pedestal. Personally I am a CAT 3 racer and am well aware that Landis could drop me instantly, but I also don't have any problem with fans asking why he "sucks" now.

Have you ever been to an NFL game at the Meadowlands? Philly fans throw beers at their home bench. Have you ever seen how the Denver Broncos fans treat all of their Quarterbacks besides John Elway? I'm sorry but I don't buy your approach that we all need to treat Floyd with deference and respect just because you happen to worship him, especially in light of the fact that he's a convicted doper.

All pro athletes subject themselves to the judgement of the fans of the sport when they go pro. All of your posts seem to me to be a thinly veiled attempt to shame people into being uncritical of the pro rider that you have an outsized man-crush on for some reason.
 
BikeCentric said:
All pro athletes subject themselves to the judgement of the fans of the sport when they go pro. All of your posts seem to me to be a thinly veiled attempt to shame people into being uncritical of the pro rider that you have an outsized man-crush on for some reason.

I think you should read a little deeper. I don't see a lot there about Floyd the man, or even Floyd the athlete. I do see quite a bit about political process, motivations and conflict of interest.

I don't confuse athletes with people that I would like to know. I am in a profession that has put me in proximity with many Olympic and world class athletes in the last twenty five years, from Kobe to Tiger, to Lance, to Nolan Ryan (are you getting the common thread here?) And I have in fact met Floyd and Tyler and Frankie... you get the picture. While I have always been impressed by a Pro's athletic abilities, only a small percentage of them have ever impressed me as incredible people. So please, spare me the star struck fan thread.

Athletes are generally self absorbed and megalomaniacal, which is fine because we watch them and follow their careers based on what they can do, not who they are. If more fans got to know their heros a little more intimately, there would be a lot fewer fans. Why?... Because athletes are human too.

One thing though that has always struck me as unfair, is a fan holding someone who can ride a bike, or drain a putt up to some personal, moral, or ethical standard that we are not willing to hold ourselves to. And then there's that unique sense of entitlement to dish on that athlete for not fulfilling on some irrational fan expectation; admitting it's a common theme doesn't justify it.

You don't know Jack about Floyd Landis and what his life is about... or Lance or Levi... Their personal trials and tribulations end up becoming partially known to you as a byproduct of their fame. But don't think for a minute that you have even a small percentage of the facts, motivations, or details correct. You just don't!! None of us do.

If you want to post on this site about the facts you do have, which are limited to performance and results, then great. If you want to preface every time you're dealing in urban legend and innuendo that: "This may be a load of crap, but..." then great. But when you deal in rumor and gossip and treat it like facts for reasons of your own self importance, or any other... you're just perpetuating a lie. Like ohh, I don't know... how about that Tyler Hamilton claimed to have a disappearing twin in-utero. Guess what?... It never happened! And how many of you bit on that one?

So, "Why does Floyd Landis Suck now?", you don't have a problem with that? OK! So why then do you seem have a problem with my implication that we all as cycling fans posting on this subject, and on this site, "Suck now"? Seems to me you're taking it kind personal. Huhh... go figure.
 
I'd suggest you read a little deeper as well.

No... "What's up with Floyd Landis' results lately?", is questioning by fans. "Why does Floyd Landis Suck now?", is Bulls#!t

What you're doing is taking everyone who disagrees with you about Floyd or otherwise, and clumping it all together like we're all just a bunch of judgmental jerks who ascribe to the "Floyd sucks" mentality.
 
Apologies

Alpe d'Huez said:
I'd suggest you read a little deeper as well.



What you're doing is taking everyone who disagrees with you about Floyd or otherwise, and clumping it all together like we're all just a bunch of judgmental jerks who ascribe to the "Floyd sucks" mentality.

You're right, and I apologize. The intension was to include myself and my contributions among the judgmental jerks in this discussion, not to cast such a wide net as to include those not on the "Floyd Sucks" bandwagon.

The real point here has nothing to do with Floyd, and everything to do with the sense of entitlement we seem to have as fans, that casting morally repugnant aspersions on any group or individual is acceptable. It is not.

The attempt was to let us all feel just a little, of what far too many of us are guilty of.
 
So VF, what's your real issue here? Are you arguing that Floyd's results aren't kinda sucky, or is it some sort of postmodern what is suck and who are we to say anyway?
 
hulkgogan said:
So VF, what's your real issue here? Are you arguing that Floyd's results aren't kinda sucky, or is it some sort of postmodern what is suck and who are we to say anyway?

I laughed so much you made me spill my coffee :)

Look for me it's simple - VF you are right when you say that we don't really know these folk and so its' hard to really understand their motives. And I agree it seems harsh to hold them up to a higher moral standard just because they are paid to do their sport. IMO just because they ride a bike fast or can catch a football doesn't make them any more or less likely to have greater integrity than the rest of us.

Now I have to clean up my spilt coffee :)
 
Mar 10, 2009
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VeloFidelis said:
You're right, and I apologize. The intension was to include myself and my contributions among the judgmental jerks in this discussion, not to cast such a wide net as to include those not on the "Floyd Sucks" bandwagon.

The real point here has nothing to do with Floyd, and everything to do with the sense of entitlement we seem to have as fans, that casting morally repugnant aspersions on any group or individual is acceptable. It is not.

The attempt was to let us all feel just a little, of what far too many of us are guilty of.

Kinda reminds me of that get-out-the-noose-and-let's-hang-Phelphs-farce. So called 'concerned parents' who were afraid that an unvoluntary role model, or better, idol, would set the wrong example for their kids. Bunch of whiners, if you don't want your kids to use dope, then don't blame it on the cereal salesman. On top of that, the big multinational that produces unhealthy cr@p, sacks him faster than a smelly dog tUr.d.

I bet they never even saw any other race, besides the ones at the Olympics, because in the States the only sports on TV are NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Bala Verde said:
I bet they never even saw any other race, besides the ones at the Olympics, because in the States the only sports on TV are NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA.

From N.C. and you forgot add NASCAR??? :D
 
hulkgogan said:
So VF, what's your real issue here? Are you arguing that Floyd's results aren't kinda sucky, or is it some sort of postmodern what is suck and who are we to say anyway?

LOL! You made me have a brainstorm though Hulk. VeloFidelus is Jesus. He hath seen us judge Floyd Landis and he hath come to judge us all in turn!
 
Pax Vobiscum

BikeCentric said:
LOL! You made me have a brainstorm though Hulk. VeloFidelus is Jesus. He hath seen us judge Floyd Landis and he hath come to judge us all in turn!

Dude!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. I hope that revelation wasn't too painful. But it's not limited to just Floyd... Watch out!! Here comes that first stone!
 
180mmCrank said:
Look for me it's simple - VF you are right when you say that we don't really know these folk and so its' hard to really understand their motives. And I agree it seems harsh to hold them up to a higher moral standard just because they are paid to do their sport. IMO just because they ride a bike fast or can catch a football doesn't make them any more or less likely to have greater integrity than the rest of us.

Yo 180

Thanks for your complete agreement. I feel you man!

Ohh... by the way you've got some coffee on your tie there...
 
Bala Verde said:
Kinda reminds me of that get-out-the-noose-and-let's-hang-Phelphs-farce. So called 'concerned parents' who were afraid that an unvoluntary role model, or better, idol, would set the wrong example for their kids. Bunch of whiners, if you don't want your kids to use dope, then don't blame it on the cereal salesman. On top of that, the big multinational that produces unhealthy cr@p, sacks him faster than a smelly dog tUr.d.

I bet they never even saw any other race, besides the ones at the Olympics, because in the States the only sports on TV are NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA.

I'm trying reeeally hard here, because I just no there is point in there somewhere...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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VeloFidelis said:
I'm trying reeeally hard here, because I just no there is point in there somewhere...

You just NO there is a point where? And please say 'Hi' to your buddy Floyd ;)
 
ridley said:
You just NO there is a point where? And please say 'Hi' to your buddy Floyd ;)

Glad you got the point. I thought it might get lost to subtlety. And yo! Floyd says thanks for the kind thought.

Although it did surprise him a little...
 
hulkgogan said:
So VF, what's your real issue here? Are you arguing that Floyd's results aren't kinda sucky, or is it some sort of postmodern what is suck and who are we to say anyway?

Wow! Another scrabble player... excellent. You may have just captured it.

When the lowest paid pro on the smallest budget team has more time and effort invested in his career than any of us have ever put into anything in our lives; why should they have to be subjected to the distain and disapproval of a bunch of self professed bike nerds who spend more time on a web site than on their bike?

When you can do it better, talk all the smack you want.
 
A

Anonymous

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BroDeal said:
There are persistent rumors that his defense was funded by Armstrong as a way to attack the LNDD, which had found EPO in Armstrong's urine samples...

Rumour: A favourite weapon of the assassins of character - Ambrose Bierce