Why I will always be a "fanboy" and proud of it

[TexPat]

I agree to a certain extent, I would also add conscience and ethics, but if I was being moralisitc I would attempt to pressure you into living your life by my morals and my ethics and my conscience, whether you agreed with them or not. And that would be a society, but it would also be a dictatorship.

But you see, my esteemed colleague, the things you speak of--ethics, morals, and one's conscience--are what the aforementioned athletes are bound by. Their contracts stipulate free and fair competition. And the UCI--pretends to be the arbiter of the rules and regulations. Therein lies the conflict.
Are those of us who object to such behavior moralistic?
And for the record, it would be a better use of energy for humanity to rid itself of crimes being committed in places like Darfur or Baghdad.
But this is a lowly cycling forum where we argue passionately about things so seemingly meaningless as sport.
I use "witch hunt" in the most sarcastic manner possible, for I feel it has been co-opted by the talking points PR douchebags whose livelihoods are based on filling the airwaves with garbage and outright lies.

 

[Race Radio]

You see RR? Not that hard to understand.

Spartacus, the only thing that I would add is that I wasn't suggesting it was as simple just increasing dosage. There are plenty of practices and substances that will make up part of an athletes "preparation" other than EPO.

And you have hit the nail on the head. Trying somehow to insist that pharmacy is the only difference between athletes differing performance levels or abilities, is either willfully myopic or ignorant.

Really enjoyed the forum omerta group hug analogy by the way....very funny

Did you read what he wrote. He said that I was right and you again were wrong.....but as you are a troll you will somehow try to spin this into a "Victory"

 

[Race Radio]

I just figure there are things worth getting really worked up about, and there are things that aren't. And in the grand scheme of things, "cheating" in cycling is a lot closer to cheating at scrable than it is to any of the real problems of the world that folks should be outraged by and motivated to solve instead.

Yeah, we get it. This whole doping in cycling thing is beneath you.....Which is why almost all of your posts here are about doping in cycling.

 

[BroDeal]

I just figure there are things worth getting really worked up about, and there are things that aren't. And in the grand scheme of things, "cheating" in cycling is a lot closer to cheating at scrable than it is to any of the real problems of the world that folks should be outraged by and motivated to solve instead.

Maybe you should take your own advice then and go work to stop world hunger or whatever instead of spending your time defending a fraud like Armstrong.

 

[Barrus]

I just figure there are things worth getting really worked up about, and there are things that aren't. And in the grand scheme of things, "cheating" in cycling is a lot closer to cheating at scrable than it is to any of the real problems of the world that folks should be outraged by and motivated to solve instead.

If that is your opinion, than why are a majority of your posts in the clinic?


Most people here do recognize there are more pressing matters in the world, however cycling is something we feel passionate about and a sport which we would like to see clean. Does this mean that we do not see the big problems in the world and don't attempt to do anything about it? No, it means that in some free time which we have we enjoy cycling, talking about cycling and watching cycling. The problem with this is however is that there is systemic doping going on in the sport, which does harm the sport, something which most of us would rather not see anymore. Does this mean we are truly outraged, in the case of many of us no, because a large amount is not directly affected by it. It means we feel strongly and passionate about something. For some there is outrage, especially those that are directly affected.

 

[Archibald]

I just figure there are things worth getting really worked up about, and there are things that aren't. And in the grand scheme of things, "cheating" in cycling is a lot closer to cheating at scrable than it is to any of the real problems of the world that folks should be outraged by and motivated to solve instead.

actually, "cheating" in scrabble, cycling, whatever is a very big issue if you want to consider a real problem of the world - dishonesty
If you could remove dishonesty from this world and from human behaviour it would go a long long way to solving so much of the world's problems...

 

[andy1234]

Tex, I think you misunderstand what I mean by moralisitic. Moralism refers to the tone people take in a discussion like this. In essence I mean, it just doesn't make me as angry as it clearly makes you. And I completely understand in your case why you are angry. Just as I understand someone's innate desire to seek advantage in sport. Do I object to it? Of course I do. But I wish them nothing more than a relevant sanction. Not death and destruction and the fiery pits. I am maybe more resigned to it than you is all.

The prospect of my wife cheating on me or vice versa is entirely different. And If I may say so, dragging anything remotely personal into this seems a bit....well....personal.

So to make it less so....If she cheated me at scrabble, I may get annoyed sure. If I lost money on a bet because of cheating? Or as has happened, someone I supported lost an event because of cheating. Yes, I was annoyed. But not unduly desirous of the cheats heinous downfall.

As for if I was an underfunded junior, which I was, who didn't get with the programme and so didn't make it, well honestly I think it would be too hard to prove. There are plenty of underfunded juniors who do make it clean. Plenty.

Well said.
To use the cheating wife analogy...
It reminds me of the guy whose wife cheats on him, then spends the rest of his life paranoid that it will happen again.
He gets a new girlfriend and monitors her every waking, and potentially sleeping hour, (3am check up anyone?) to ensure she doesnt stray.
All spontaneity and joy is removed from the relationship, but at least the guy is confident in the fact that he wont be fooled again.

 

[andy1234]

actually, "cheating" in scrabble, cycling, whatever is a very big issue if you want to consider a real problem of the world - dishonesty
If you could remove dishonesty from this world and from human behaviour it would go a long long way to solving so much of the world's problems...

You have my vote if you have a solution for this. If you could also eliminate death and taxes while you are there, you would definately be on to a winner.

 

[Benotti69]

...
All spontaneity and joy is removed from the relationship, but at least the guy is confident in the fact that he wont be fooled again.

all spontaneity and joy was removed watching riders do the 'unbelievable', 'incredible', 'amazing' performances that we have witnessed since the 90s...

 

[SpartacusRox]

all spontaneity and joy was removed watching riders do the 'unbelievable', 'incredible', 'amazing' performances that we have witnessed since the 90s...

Actually I have enjoyed watching many races since the 90's, involving numerous riders. I feel sorry for you if you haven't been able enjoy cycling for the past 20 years or so! Actually it would have to be for longer than that because riders have been taking crap to make them go faster, suffer less or just dull the pain for decades. Cycling never has been an even playing field.

Jaques Anquetil even said that he couldn't be expected to race the TdF without drugs. Not the high powered stuff of today for sure but drugs non the less.

 

[stephens]

Maybe you should take your own advice then and go work to stop world hunger or whatever instead of spending your time defending a fraud like Armstrong.

Huh? I've never said one word in defense of Armstrong's actions. I don't even like him as a cyclist or a human being. I have said I don't think he'll be crucified as much as you all think and I have objected to some of the methods of investigation and speculation, but that's quite different from defending him.

 

[Archibald]

You have my vote if you have a solution for this. If you could also eliminate death and taxes while you are there, you would definately be on to a winner.

obviously, lol!
the other two I'd add to it for the Genie to round out his three and create a far better world would be religion and nationalism...
we know it won't happen even if we could add apathy to that list

 

[pmcg76]

I agree with the idea that cheating is cheating but Lance was never just another guy cheating. That is the main difference between him and most other athletes. The guy almost died from cancer and could have walked away from the sport easliy but chose to come back and dope to the gills using the cancer card as his protection, that is not the same as some regular guy cheating. How did Bruyneel convince Lance that he could win the Tour, I imagine it went something like this.

Late 1998:
Johan Bruyneel & Lance Armstrong in conversation

Bruyneel: Hey Lance, I think I can help you win the Tour!!
[U]Lance:[/U] Really, why and how?

Bruyneel: Man, if Riis can do it, why not you? you are miles ahead of Riis, we just need to get you on the right program along with the team and focus on just the Tour. I spent years with Manolo so I know a few tricks.
Lance: Do you think thats viable with all the **** that has gone down with Festina etc, I means its out of the box now.

Bruyneel: Dont work Lance, this actually works in your favour for a number of reasons,
1- You missed out on all that mess so you have a clean slate.
2- A lot of those guys will now be hesitant about doping to the max like before, especially all the guys busted last year so it opens it up a bit, its a window of opportunity.
3- No one will really see you as a contender so you will fly below the radar.

Lance: But what about the UCI, better testing etc.
Bruyneel: Haha, the UCI!!! are you fricking kidding me, Heino wont do jack against doping. The biggest obstacle to doping now is logistics, not the testing. Man they still cannot even test for EPO. If this works, the UCI will be eating out of your hand'

Lance: How so?
Bruyneel: Lance, you have one major card the other guys dont. Cancer!!

Lance:[/U] What!!! are you kidding me?
Bruyneel: No, think about it, you have returned from cancer, set up your foundation which is all great PR, look at how much positive press you got in 98 alone. Imagine if you won the Tour, it would be crazy, the thing would go viral.

Lance: Yeah, yeah
Bruyneel: Lance, cycling needs some good news these days and what could be better than a cancer survivor winning the Tour. It would make LeMonds comeback seem like a walk in the park. Imagine the headlines, and whats more the story would go outisde the cycling world, you would be feted the world over by the mainstream media and as they know jack about cycling, will lap it up. The major comapanies would be falling over themselves to be assocaited with you, all good news for the UCI.

Lance: Yeah, but wont there be those who wonder how I managed to become a contender when even I myself said I couldnt win the Tour before.
Bruyneel: Again, Cancer is the key, we can say it caused you to lose weight, reshaped your body and how you are now doing it for the cancer community. The press and public will love that stuff. Beside, nobody will dare question a cancer survivor and if they do, we will make sure they are hounded down, Man, its all about PR and spin.

Lance: Ok, so who we gonna get to do the program
Bruyneel: Who else but the master himself, Dr.Ferrari

Lance: Jeez, Ferrari doesnt have a good reputation in cycling and has a big mouth. If people know I am working with Ferrari, then they will know whats going on straight away:
Bruyneel: Then, we gag him with shedloads of money to ensure he doesnt talk and that the relationship remains secret. Ferrari is the master Lance, you know that!!

Lance[/U]: You seem to have all the angles covered Johan, one question, wont we be sort of absuing and duping the cancer community?.
Bruyneel : Oh Lance, dont worry about that, just imagine when you are successful, the money will be rolling in and you can give what you want to cancer, everyone will love you, cycling will love you because of your appeal, the media will love you because of your story, the cancer communtiy will love you because of your inspirational story. You will be untouchable. As long as we go with cancer and Ferrari, you will be rich and more popular than you could ever have imagined. What harm will a few lies do to anyone?

Lance:[/U] Ok, you convinced me, time to get rid of that Weltz guy, your in charge now, Johan.

Not the actual conversation but I would imagine, not far away.

 

[washedup]

I agree with the idea that cheating is cheating but Lance was never just another guy cheating. That is the main difference between him and most other athletes. The guy almost died from cancer and could have walked away from the sport easliy but chose to come back and dope to the gills using the cancer card as his protection, that is not the same as some regular guy cheating. How did Bruyneel convince Lance that he could win the Tour, I imagine it went something like this.

Late 1998:
Johan Bruyneel & Lance Armstrong in conversation

Bruyneel: Hey Lance, I think I can help you win the Tour!!
[U]Lance:[/U] Really, why and how?

Bruyneel: Man, if Riis can do it, why not you? you are miles ahead of Riis, we just need to get you on the right program along with the team and focus on just the Tour. I spent years with Manolo so I know a few tricks.
Lance: Do you think thats viable with all the **** that has gone down with Festina etc, I means its out of the box now.

Bruyneel: Dont work Lance, this actually works in your favour for a number of reasons,
1- You missed out on all that mess so you have a clean slate.
2- A lot of those guys will now be hesitant about doping to the max like before, especially all the guys busted last year so it opens it up a bit, its a window of opportunity.
3- No one will really see you as a contender so you will fly below the radar.

Lance: But what about the UCI, better testing etc.
Bruyneel: Haha, the UCI!!! are you fricking kidding me, Heino wont do jack against doping. The biggest obstacle to doping now is logistics, not the testing. Man they still cannot even test for EPO. If this works, the UCI will be eating out of your hand'

Lance: How so?
Bruyneel: Lance, you have one major card the other guys dont. Cancer!!

Lance:[/U] What!!! are you kidding me?
Bruyneel: No, think about it, you have returned from cancer, set up your foundation which is all great PR, look at how much positive press you got in 98 alone. Imagine if you won the Tour, it would be crazy, the thing would go viral.

Lance: Yeah, yeah
Bruyneel: Lance, cycling needs some good news these days and what could be better than a cancer survivor winning the Tour. It would make LeMonds comeback seem like a walk in the park. Imagine the headlines, and whats more the story would go outisde the cycling world, you would be feted the world over by the mainstream media and as they know jack about cycling, will lap it up. The major comapanies would be falling over themselves to be assocaited with you, all good news for the UCI.

Lance: Yeah, but wont there be those who wonder how I managed to become a contender when even I myself said I couldnt win the Tour before.
Bruyneel: Again, Cancer is the key, we can say it caused you to lose weight, reshaped your body and how you are now doing it for the cancer community. The press and public will love that stuff. Beside, nobody will dare question a cancer survivor and if they do, we will make sure they are hounded down, Man, its all about PR and spin.

Lance: Ok, so who we gonna get to do the program
Bruyneel: Who else but the master himself, Dr.Ferrari

Lance: Jeez, Ferrari doesnt have a good reputation in cycling and has a big mouth. If people know I am working with Ferrari, then they will know whats going on straight away:
Bruyneel: Then, we gag him with shedloads of money to ensure he doesnt talk and that the relationship remains secret. Ferrari is the master Lance, you know that!!

Lance[/U]: You seem to have all the angles covered Johan, one question, wont we be sort of absuing and duping the cancer community?.
Bruyneel : Oh Lance, dont worry about that, just imagine when you are successful, the money will be rolling in and you can give what you want to cancer, everyone will love you, cycling will love you because of your appeal, the media will love you because of your story, the cancer communtiy will love you because of your inspirational story. You will be untouchable. As long as we go with cancer and Ferrari, you will be rich and more popular than you could ever have imagined. What harm will a few lies do to anyone?

Lance:[/U] Ok, you convinced me, time to get rid of that Weltz guy, your in charge now, Johan.

Not the actual conversation but I would imagine, not far away.

Wow, how long did that take? Do you really think JB has the brain cells to lead the way? Or do you think Lancy chose him because JB always says "der de der, ok Lance! Yay, get dat purty yellow shirt!"

 

[buckwheat]

Wow, how long did that take? Do you really think JB has the brain cells to lead the way? Or do you think Lancy chose him because JB always says "der de der, ok Lance! Yay, get dat purty yellow shirt!"

JB is politically savvy. He was smart enough to tell LA what he wanted to hear

 

[washedup]

I know a damp rag who is more politically savvy than JB.

 

[flicker]

So, you all really think Johann is the bad guy as far as getting Lance into trouble? Hmmm?

 

[pmcg76]

So, you all really think Johann is the bad guy as far as getting Lance into trouble? Hmmm?

TBH, I am sure it was more of a joint decision than my post illustrates, maybe the roles should even be reversed. I am sure its a conversation most GT contenders have with potential teams/DS except of cousre without the cancer bit which as I pointed out, makes Lance different from other pros and less admirable in my book.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Not the actual conversation but I would imagine, not far away.

So THATS perhaps what a perfect hater-dream looks like.
Thank you for this !
You even made Johan so stupid that he looks after Riis - not Ullrich.
Wow ! And if there hadn't been the Festina-affair, Lance would never have won one single tour.

If it was a movie I would switch it off after 5 min.
I think Al would go upstairs with Pegg freely to avoid this one.

 

[flicker]

TBH, I am sure it was more of a joint decision than my post illustrates, maybe the roles should even be reversed. I am sure its a conversation most GT contenders have with potential teams/DS except of cousre without the cancer bit which as I pointed out, makes Lance different from other pros and less admirable in my book.

You could be absolutley right. The thing is I think all of this involves so many, from so many different countries it would be difficult for me to nail Bruyneel, Ferrari and Armstrong in a troika of evil.

If you really listen to all these guys speaking the involvement involves so many.... it must be quite confusing for Novizky as to where to start and where to carry through with a prosecution...

 

[Benotti69]

So THATS perhaps what a perfect hater-dream looks like.
Thank you for this !
You even made Johan so stupid that he looks after Riis - not Ullrich.
Wow ! And if there hadn't been the Festina-affair, Lance would never have won one single tour.

If it was a movie I would switch it off after 5 min.
I think Al would go upstairs with Pegg freely to avoid this one.

google translate not so good today

 

[pmcg76]

So THATS perhaps what a perfect hater-dream looks like.
Thank you for this !
You even made Johan so stupid that he looks after Riis - not Ullrich.
Wow ! And if there hadn't been the Festina-affair, Lance would never have won one single tour.

If it was a movie I would switch it off after 5 min.
I think Al would go upstairs with Pegg freely to avoid this one.

So you think when they were talking about winning the Tour, they never discussed all these issues, what do you think they talked about, the weather. Wake up and live in the real world.

Did you ever hear the quote from a DS in the 90s

"It used to be when discussing contract terms for a rider, the main question asked by the rider was "How much?" Now the first question is "Who is the Doctor and then how much".

 

[Benotti69]

Actually I have enjoyed watching many races since the 90's, involving numerous riders. I feel sorry for you if you haven't been able enjoy cycling for the past 20 years or so! Actually it would have to be for longer than that because riders have been taking crap to make them go faster, suffer less or just dull the pain for decades. Cycling never has been an even playing field.

Jaques Anquetil even said that he couldn't be expected to race the TdF without drugs. Not the high powered stuff of today for sure but drugs non the less.

there is a difference between spontaneity, joy and enjoyment. No need to feel sorry for me Sparty you fanboys have given plenty of hours of enjoyment with your postings.

you can't compare Anquetil and his rivals choice of PEDs compared to what has been taken since the 90s.

 

[Cobblestoned]

So you think when they were talking about winning the Tour, they never discussed all these issues, what do you think they talked about, the weather. Wake up and live in the real world.

Did you ever hear the quote from a DS in the 90s

"It used to be when discussing contract terms for a rider, the main question asked by the rider was "How much?" Now the first question is "Who is the Doctor and then how much".

I don't doubt that conversations about such things are going on.
I just say that your effort was bad and perhaps compatible with a perfect dream in a little hater world. Really bad effort. Dreaming. You were even so bold to speak of "not far away".

Dream on or try it again. I didn't even mention the disgusting dreams you lay into Johan's brain. Thats for free.

Another example (to help you)
How do you handle this in your dream: Lance was 4. of the Vuelta Espana in 1998
Thats quiet good, without a "conversation" with Johan - and for sure good enough not to "fly below the radar" at the start of LeTour 99.

 

[andy1234]

there is a difference between spontaneity, joy and enjoyment. No need to feel sorry for me Sparty you fanboys have given plenty of hours of enjoyment with your postings.

you can't compare Anquetil and his rivals choice of PEDs compared to what has been taken since the 90s.

It's an interesting phrase "choice of PEDs"
It sounds like an honourable choice that the pre EPO generation made.
I have a feeling that Anquetil would have been first in the queue if modern drugs were available to him.

I have to say, some of the best racing I have ever seen was in the heyday of EPO use. In particular Pantani vs Ulrich in the 98 tour, though US postal donkeys dropping pure climbers in later tours ranked as the most boring...