Race Radio said:How long was his suspension for his Worlds positive?
I believe it was 10 years of riding with bad hair.
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Race Radio said:How long was his suspension for his Worlds positive?
tubularglue said:The earliest known formulation of the principle is in the book On Interpretation by Aristotle,[3] where he says that of two contradictory propositions (i.e. where one proposition is the negation of the other) one must be true, and the other false.[4] He also states it as a principle in the Metaphysics book 3, saying that it is necessary in every case to affirm or deny,[5] and that it is impossible that there should be anything between the two parts of a contradiction.[6]
stephens said:Sure. But then came the 20th century. And now the search for Truth with a capital T is dead, abandoned, having ended in total, devastating failure. What matters now is not whether something is true or not, but what the consequences of behaving as if it is true are. If those consequences for society are better believing it to be true than they'd be believing it to be false, then we should proceed as if it is true.
This sucks, i know, for those who prefer to go through life believing they know the one true way and everyone else is wrong. But these folks are on the wrong side of history and though they dig in their heels, they are doomed to extinction nonetheless.
tubularglue said:November 28, 1998: The results of the analysis of the samples taken from the nine Festina riders are known and are subsequently released and revealed evidence of Human Growth Hormone, amphetamines, steroids, corticoids and Erythropoietin (EPO). What A Mixture- In eight of the nine riders test positive for synthetic EPO. The results of the ninth rider (Christophe Moreau) were indeterminate but Moreau had already admitted use of EPO. Traces of amphetamines were found in the samples of Moreau, Pascal Hervé, Laurent Brochard and Didier Rous. Four riders had hematocrit levels below the legal limit of 50%, establish in February 1997 [31]. These included Virenque, Armin Meier, Moreau who had a level of 49.3 and Laurent Dufaux who had a level of 47.2%. Five riders were above the limit. Brochard had 50.3%, Neil Stephens 50.3%, Hervé 52.6%, Rous 51% and Alex Zülle 52.3%.[citation needed]
stephens said:Well, if one isn't persuaded by 20th century history to abandon the quest for and belief in absolute Truth, surely 20th century science, particularly physics, ought to do the job? Surely one cannot make the case that it is sophomoric!
Rabiddog said:...and I would love someone to ask him who his Doctor was in the 80's and if any of the medical help he received then has since become a banned practice...
Benotti69 said:Another a delicious fanboy statement. If LeMond was doing something in the 80's that is now banned do you not think there are former riders, DS and et all who would be out there making a few $$$$s selling the story to some media outlet etc....god knows Armstrong has enough fans that would love to hear about it and he has been offering money looking for someone to tarnish LeMond with a doping story but again the silence from former pros, DS, masseurs etc is deafening....
blutto said:...now admittedly I dont know much about crime but I do watch cop shows on TV...and one of the things Ive gleaned from that activity is that to get away with a crime you have to keep your mouth, and the mouths of your co-conspirators shut even more tightly...so if your inner circle is tight enough you are as good as gold...and who is to say that an inner circle has to include a DS, or masseurs, or fellow riders...your assumption that it should, plays nicely into your idea of what the story should be and not much more...and your assumption of the the ways things were, could just well be simply back-filling....so maybe there were actually doctors (as in plural ) some of which were not directly involved in cycling...working within a parallel group outside of the cycling community...who really knows, but that scenario is not unknown in cycling history...in fact it has been played out that way at least once to my knowledge....
Elagabalus said:It's not sophomoric. This is the 21st century. And my position on physics and/or history does not affect whether or not Armstrong is guilty. The End.
Oh, and I don't believe your basic premise from a few pages back. If Armstrong's samples are retested and the results are positive Americans will throw him under the bus.
Darryl Webster said:???
I dont do "fan boyism" ..and try to avoid much in the way of belief..prefering to have an open mind to a good idea ..ready to be superceaded by a better idea.
And what I`ve never seen is a single one of the "believers" ever address is the physiological implausability of a clean rider beeting a EPO`d up rider when EPO gives a 5..15% advantage.
Of course there are those who choose to ignore science just as there are those who are creationists and believe in paranormal activities...despite absalutly NO possitive evidence of such notions. NONE.
It`s said man creates his own reality...it`s aslo said that the soundest minds are those were that reality ties in closest to the imperical science of the measured and observable universe.
Then again some peeps find such ideas just an irritant to the trap they`ve made for themselves by believing.
Believe away dude.![]()
andy1234 said:Hi Darryl,
Are you suggesting that races can't be won by clean riders against EPO doped riders?
Do you not belive that Boardman was riding clean when he was beating the EPO generation in the TDF prologues and GCs in the shorter stage races etc?
SpartacusRox said:Yeah but thats all it takes to upset brodeal. You are either rabidly anti Armstrong or you are a fanboy. There is no objective middle ground for people like our Bro, bless his heart. It's easier to live in a black and white world. heck his favourite programme is Lone Ranger reruns.![]()
Maxiton said:I'm afraid I'll have to come down on the side of truth, rather than its frankly bourgeois and, if you don't mind my saying so, sophomoric rejection. I know Hegel often takes the rap for totalitarianism and authoritarianism, but he is just the ladder nihilists sometimes use, or misappropriate, to reach their Hitler Youth uniforms. Nihilism is the doctrine adopted on behalf of those who are desperate to escape the logic of their own social demise: if the truth is that my death is inevitable, then there is no truth! Keep telling yourself that and click your heels together.
Can I get that on ice?![]()
straydog said:Well, every year after 99 except 2001 obviously. And never mind the fact that 2001 was the last time A Travers Lausanne was run.
Hey, don't let that get in the way of your conspiracy theory, or the fact that it was a prestigous and lucrative two stage race won by amongst others Coppi, Merckx, Zoetemelk, Pantani and (oddly) Evans, that would be perfectly reasonable for Armstrong to want to win.
Benotti69 said:Back in the 80s taking substances was not the sin it is today, so it would not be such a tight circle and as the rabiddog suggested that LeMond was taking substances that were not banned then but are now why would a rider hide that from the DS, Masseur and other riders, shít they all pretty much know nowadays whose on what in the team so why would LeMond be so secretive if he was using anything to enhance his performance....
it does not add up that LeMond who has stood on top of the parapet since discovering Armstrong's 'fraud' and shouted to the high heavans for nearly 10 years about doping, doped. I imagine someone out there in the world of the cycling omerta who wanted to protect the omerta could take him down if they knew something but they haven't. Why? because they cant. Simple the guy was clean.
so the myths from the fanboys continue that LA did it on his own, a miracle cure after cancer which caused his body to change, lactate better, huge Vo2Max etc etc etc.....oh and anyway LeMond doped too they all did....yawn.
thehog said:...or it could be said that mountain climbers and long distance cyclists were getting in a few hundredths of second of an Olympic pursuit champion. Go figure on those power outputs.
andy1234 said:Agreed.
On the same note, take a look at this result from a mountain stage of the 1996 tour (arguably one of the last unregulated EPO tours)
How many riders around Boardman would you say were clean!!!
BTW I think this shows that some clean riders can compete against doped riders, if only for limited periods.
Stage 13, Le Puy-En-Velay - Superbesse-Sancy, 177km
1. Rolf Sorensen (Den) Rabobank 4.03.56
2. Orlando Rodrigues (Por) Banesto
3. Richard Virenque (Fra) Festina all s.t.
4. Luc Leblanc (Fra) Polti 0.02
5. Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Roslotto 0.11
6. Miguel Indurain (Spa) Banesto 0.23
7. Chris Boardman (Gbr) GAN
8. Laurent Brochard (Fra) Festina
9. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) Festina
10. Abraham Olano (Spa) Mapei
11. Bjarne Riis (Den) Telekom
12. Peter Luttenberger (Aut) Carrera
13. Patrick Jonker (Aus) ONCE
14. Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Refin all s.t.
15. Michele Bartoli (Ita) MG-Technogym 0.35
16. Bo Hamburger (Den) TVM 0.51
17. Jan Ullrich (Ger) Telekom
18. Udo Bolts (Ger) Telekom
19. Tony Rominger (Swi) Mapei
20. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme
21. Claudio Chiappucci (Ita) Carrera
22. Yevgeny Berzin (Rus) Gewiss all s.t.
No point in asking you to back up your comments as I remember asking before and was greeted with silence.Cobblestoned said:Is your "Greg -weedsmoker- Lemond won them all clean, always clean" a kind of defiance, or do you really believe in that miracle ?
As I told you earlier, after all we know (perhaps you too) about cycling, only a kid believes in a clean Gregr.
Cobblestoned said:Is your "Greg -weedsmoker- Lemond won them all clean, always clean" a kind of defiance, or do you really believe in that miracle ?
As I told you earlier, after all we know (perhaps you too) about cycling, only a kid believes in a clean Greg
Cobblestoned said:Is your "Greg -weedsmoker- Lemond won them all clean, always clean" a kind of defiance, or do you really believe in that miracle ?
As I told you earlier, after all we know (perhaps you too) about cycling, only a kid believes in a clean Greg
Dr. Maserati said:No point in asking you to back up your comments as I remember asking before and was greeted with silence.
Lots of ad hominems there to make our point - which probably cuts to your real intention.
But I will say, LeMond aside, I find the highlighted above an insult to any riders who did manage to ride clean throughout their careers.
Cobblestoned said:Yes, I remember. Stuck situation, hmmm ?
When you didn't serve me, why should I have served you ? Thats where it ended.
about insult:
Well, I don't put Greg aside. I was talking about a 3 time GT winner - not some unnoticed helpers who rode possibly clean.
blutto said:...ooh that is going to leave a mark...
...or to conflate Darryl's view of the effect of EPO with a weighted look at the LeMond and Indurain wattage graphs introduced earlier...if EPO absolutely trumps clean riding how is it that LeMond's output is higher than Indurain's( who the chamois sniffers have demonized as absolutely positively being on the sauce)...is it because LeMond is just a cycling God among mere mortals or do I detect the acrid smell of a miracle...
Cheers
blutto