Why it DOES matter that Lance goes down.

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Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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gree0232 said:
Yeah, that is what it is about.

The question is: why do we need to keep digging?

BTW - If I am not mistaken, you posted an open letter to one JV right here on this very forum. One to Pat McQuaid as well, right? If that is not demanding evidence, what the hell is?
Am, if I wrote that "I demand evidence", that would be evidence of me demanding evidence.
Writing 'open letters' is writing 'open letters'.


As to why I keep digging.
Because this sport has no chance of regaining credibility until the deceit and fraud of those responsible is exposed.
 
To me the only thing that matters is that the UCI and those in positions of power in cycling go down too. It's not enough just for Lance to go down and frankly I wouldn't care between Lance going down and Lance not going down. What I really want to see is the wider network of lies and corruption removed from the sport.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Berzin said:
Moose, when I think of the Lance fans I know in my area, mostly aging yuppies who cannot grasp the concept of growing old gracefully or who use any and every situation, whether it's at their jobs or on the weekend rocket ride to show the world they still "have it", cycling offers them very few heroes.

Armstrong has conquered the world of cycling, dominating the most prestigious event in the world a record 7 times. He has conquered the corporate world selling nothing more substantial than the hot air emanating from his rear end.

Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
Good stuff Berzin.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Berzin said:
Moose, when I think of the Lance fans I know in my area, mostly aging yuppies who cannot grasp the concept of growing old gracefully or who use any and every situation, whether it's at their jobs or on the weekend rocket ride to show the world they still "have it", cycling offers them very few heroes.

Armstrong has conquered the world of cycling, dominating the most prestigious event in the world a record 7 times. He has conquered the corporate world selling nothing more substantial than the hot air emanating from his rear end.

Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
Why are you hanging with anyone you do not like or respect. A classy way to deal with a situation is to be polite to them ride along with them and go to the coffee shop with them. If they discuss Lance you can say, well, I would really not talk about him, hey that is a nice Pinerello Dogma you have there.

Just a thought.
 
May 24, 2010
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i love the phrase "truth, justice and the American way" obviously Mom didn't him what that meant.

It's vital that he pays for bullying and corrupting the sport into the hole it's in now. No trust in it's stars, no trust in its authorities, you can't watch a race without asking questions.

I want my sport back that won't happen until this sham of a man, his dodgy dealings, his bullying, his corruption and complicity with the UCI is dealt with once and for all.
 
Jul 11, 2010
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It matters to me because my money is being routed into a system that coerces young riders to play russian roulette in order to win a stupid bicycle race.

Lance may care about people dying of cancer, but ironically, doesn't give a rat's *** about the lives that have been destroyed through the doping system of which he was Grand Poobah for many years. He, his minions, and the jokers that financed it should ALL be held accountable. Ferrari, Lim, Carmichael, Livestrong management, the heads of Bell, Oakley, Nike, USPS, etc., etc., ... they all knew damned good and well what they were buying into. Lance Armstrong is just the beginning of righting an egregious wrong.
 
Has anyone mentioned TexPat?

The bigger the fraud, the worse the punishment IMO. You cannot equate a relatively straight forward doping-to-go-faster case with what we are reading lately. Jail would be the best result, closely followed by a huge loss of $$$.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Define your vague terms!!!!!

What do you mean by going down?

Do you mean:
(a) Performing an act of a sexual nature?
(b) Being convicted of a crime?
(c) Being convicted of a particular crime?
(d) Being charged with a crime?
(e) Being charged with a particular crime?
(f) Being accused by his federation of doping?
(g) Having a final doping adjudication by CAS?
(h) Having his mommy believed he doped?
(i) Having a particular person or group believe he doped?
(j) Having a certain number of people believe he doped?
(k) Giving YOU the release you long for so, oh so much?

Just what do YOU want Lance to suffer Herr Doktor Maserati?
 
Berzin said:
Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
wow. awesome post.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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I had posted much of this previously, on a different site, many months ago (and a small part of this on a different thread here). But it applies directly to the OP so I'll offer it again. This also takes into account some of the recent (and alarming!) reactions that somehow he should get a pass, regardless of his transgressions, "because of the good he has done."

Lance has outright denied, unequivocally, throughout his career, that he has ever cheated in any way, shape or form. He set himself up as a role model of what could be attained solely through perseverance and hard work. Yes, he worked and trained with extreme dedication and tenacity, and in the end--artificially enhanced or not--went on to achieve something in cycling that no one before him had.

But is he a liar? That's what this is ultimately about. Do we, as a society and culture, care about truth? Do we make exceptions in these matters or must it be unequivocal? The size or impact of Lance’s empire should not excuse him from one of the most basic tenets of what we are all taught as children: the importance of telling the truth. Also, do we, as a society, care about sport? We certainly seem to on a global basis. It is one of the only venues, if not the only, that allows us to come together from all corners of the earth and gather as one. In light of that, perhaps sport has a deeper and more profound meaning than many of us are even aware. So, should we care about the rule of sport and how athletes achieve the things they do? Should we put any value on knowing whether or not your opponent is cheating?

Ultimately, I think Lance's fate will be determined by how he deals with the presently unfolding events. I believe there still exists a path by which he could minimize some of the damage coming his way.

BUT…if Lance is steadfast, and his denials fly in the face of overwhelming evidence against him—including, but at this point certainly not limited to, first-hand accounts from multiple former teammates, who for many would have nothing to gain yet much to lose—then he will be revealed for the lying and cunning manipulator that he has proven himself to be, over and over again throughout his career. And that could destroy everything that he has spent most of his life constructing.

It is mostly out of his hands now though. There is serious evidence of serious crimes having been committed. The depth and breadth of the current investigation, and the people behind it, and the offices they hold, are a testament to that. To maintain a civil society, we must maintain that no one is above the law.

That is why this matters.
 
May 11, 2009
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Granville57 said:
I had posted much of this previously, on a different site, many months ago (and a small part of this on a different thread here). But it applies directly to the OP so I'll offer it again. This also takes into account some of the recent (and alarming!) reactions that somehow he should get a pass, regardless of his transgressions, "because of the good he has done."

Lance has outright denied, unequivocally, throughout his career, that he has ever cheated in any way, shape or form. He set himself up as a role model of what could be attained solely through perseverance and hard work. Yes, he worked and trained with extreme dedication and tenacity, and in the end--artificially enhanced or not--went on to achieve something in cycling that no one before him had.

But is he a liar? That's what this is ultimately about. Do we, as a society and culture, care about truth? Do we make exceptions in these matters or must it be unequivocal? The size or impact of Lance’s empire should not excuse him from one of the most basic tenets of what we are all taught as children: the importance of telling the truth. Also, do we, as a society, care about sport? We certainly seem to on a global basis. It is one of the only venues, if not the only, that allows us to come together from all corners of the earth and gather as one. In light of that, perhaps sport has a deeper and more profound meaning than many of us are even aware. So, should we care about the rule of sport and how athletes achieve the things they do? Should we put any value on knowing whether or not your opponent is cheating?

Ultimately, I think Lance's fate will be determined by how he deals with the presently unfolding events. I believe there still exists a path by which he could minimize some of the damage coming his way.

BUT…if Lance is steadfast, and his denials fly in the face of overwhelming evidence against him—including, but at this point certainly not limited to, first-hand accounts from multiple former teammates, who for many would have nothing to gain yet much to lose—then he will be revealed for the lying and cunning manipulator that he has proven himself to be, over and over again throughout his career. And that could destroy everything that he has spent most of his life constructing.

It is mostly out of his hands now though. There is serious evidence of serious crimes having been committed. The depth and breadth of the current investigation, and the people behind it, and the offices they hold, are a testament to that. To maintain a civil society, we must maintain that no one is above the law.

That is why this matters.
What matters is the ability to ACTUALLY ganer a ****ing conviction.

Seriously, since when did justice become a popularity contest?

12 friggin' years. 12 years. Millions of dollars in investigations have produced ....

"Well, he might have used Hemassist is a way that we cannot detail or prove."

At what point do we get to look at the witch hunters, the sport equivalent of the Salem Witch Trails, and say, "Enough!"

****ing put up or shut the hell up! Either you convict the guy, or take your preaching into some other sport with doping problems and let us watch a bike race in peace! Let us admire a guy who beat cancer AND won the greatest sporting event in the world SEVEN times without having our very worth as human being challenged!


I think Marx had it wrong, religion isn't the opiate of the masses, it is apparently organized sports! And God forbid anyone think a bike race is about the strongest man winning rather than some sanctimonious moral crusade!?!

Show us evidence, after millions of wasted dollars and years of accusssation, or STFU!

I don't personally give a rip one way or another whether Lance doped.
 
Jun 21, 2010
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In time, those interested in whether/how Lance doped will get answers. For anti-Lancers, it must be difficult watching Contador's career burn as a result of doping while Lance fades away.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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to one fanboy to another

Even if proof comes up, I'm willing to bet this two guys are going to say: Well everybody doped............(you know the rest) reminds me of the Chappelle show when Dave refuses to believe OJ and Michael Jackson are guilty even with all the evidences presented at him, by just saying at the very end " my blackness won't allow it" It's comical, I understand they stand behind him because hey, they like the guy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but for the life of me please reframe from saying there are no arguments to suggest LA doped, because then it really insult my intelligence, I'm a fan enough to admit that when Alberto is punish for the things he's done (I know he doped) I'll cheer for him when he comes back, why? well I like the guy, just like I'll be cheering for Basso on July, (probably doping right now) in my case it's a matter of personality, because I like nice people, I simpathyze with their character.


Ciao
 
Nov 24, 2010
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gree0232 said:
What matters is the ability to ACTUALLY ganer a ****ing conviction.


I don't personally give a rip one way or another whether Lance doped.

Just be patient gre0232 - Novitzky will reveal the hard evidence when he is ready. The SI article was just an appetizer

He won the TDF 7 times? Maybe after Novitzky finishes, those numbers will be changed! leaving Greg LeMond as the most successful American TDF rider of all time

cheers
 
May 11, 2009
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Dallas_ said:
Just be patient gre0232 - Novitzky will reveal the hard evidence when he is ready. The SI article was just an appetizer

He won the TDF 7 times? Maybe after Novitzky finishes, those numbers will be changed! leaving Greg LeMond as the most successful American TDF rider of all time

cheers
Let me ask a question to all the anti-dopers who think Lance is the holy grail here? The proverbial Moby ****?

Why do you not care about ALL the other cyclists that Landis accussed?

Hincapie?

Anyone on the US postal team?

If the SI article and what is in it are the appitizer, the main course better have some meat in it, because after 12 years of vegan rumors the meat eaters, those who want real evidence, are starving.

If he did? Great! Prove it.

If he didn't? There are some people on this forum who need to ask some serious questions about how anti-doping became a Crusade against Lance?

Honestly, I poke my head in here from time to time and try to discuss methods of ACTUAL antidoping. When I tried to say that we should use actual criminal investigation techniques (before the current investigation mind you)

How does THAT fix doping problems?

At what point can we take our sport and it accomplishments more seriously than Britney Spears? Paris Hilton?

There has got to be a standard for doping convictions, and that standard cannot be hearsay or rumor.

If teh current investigation does not produce something tangible and soon, it is time to start going after the Lance accussers rather than Lance.

12 years of acrimony and accussations. Pony up, or let us have our sport back!
 
May 26, 2010
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gree0232 said:
That is why there is no conviction and LA is riding in Australia - because he is so obviously a doper?

Yep, being a father of five is clearly proof of the Anti-Christ.

God help anyone who wins a bike race.
there's no conviction YET because you dont get the big fish by lifting the rod on the first bite.

LA could not have got his 7TdF wins without his doping along with the corruption and complicity of the ASO, UCI and others who saw the story of a cancer survivor winning the TdF as huge cash cow. Hence his longevity and now the difficulty in getting people to talk. His dirty web is intertwined with one of the most corrupt sporting federations in the world, the IOC, via Hein Verbrugen.

LA was naturally a talented athlete. that was never questioned in here. but he was never a GT winner. iF he won 1 TdF and left it at that his legacy would have been assured but he got greedy and abused a lot of people on his way to 7 wins. some people deservedly no doubt most not. he cheated and cheated bigger than anyone else.

If Hincapie won the TdF 7 times in the same manner his name would be here. Floyd was flamed in here for his cheating to win one. as for the others, why aren't you supporting their legacy by starting threads about them, how they gave it all as super domestiques? why are you not blowing their trumpet instead of Armstrongs?

Carlos Satre has not been flamed in here. Fignon has not been flamed in here. Hinault has not been flamed in here. Contador has and it will get worse for him if keeps denying that he took PEDS. Shleck has big ? over his head and it will be under bigger scrutiny at the years TdF. but there performances have all been questioned in the typical 'how is it possible to win the TdF without the PEDs?'

People ignoring what type of a human being LA is, a cheat, a fraud, a liar, a bully, a sociopath and for me all those things add up to one simple fact, he is a loser in life.

if you cannot see the real Armstrong no amount of reading in here is going to help you.

Armstrong is not the anti christ...he aint that good.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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Here is the man that has allegedly unleashed the greatest doping scandal in history and people would want to let him get away with it because of 'LiveStrong'.

It's hypocritical. The truth is if Lance Armstrong came back from cancer and returned to his original form it would've of been a good news story for a month but soon be forgotten. Hell if he won the TdF it would be a good story for a year.
 
May 5, 2009
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I'm sorry guys that you don't believe in miracles. You're all just bitter! :D

It does matter because if he doesn't go down, he and the omertà dirt crew will get even worse in cycling. Many riders are still scared about LIEstrong. This must be removed and cleaned. If he doesn't get taken down, many will also continue to cheat and lie, because they saw this primary example with LA that they can get through with it.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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la.margna said:
If he doesn't get taken down, many will also continue to cheat and lie, because they saw this primary example with LA that they can get through with it.
This is it for me too. I want it to change cycling as a whole.
If it can be proven that he cheated then he needs to face the consequences (as should any doper), but the impact needs to affect the whole sport.
For the vast majority of the public LA is cycling. If everything, from the riders and DSs, to sponsors and UCI heads, is to change then he has to be made an example of to the general public. Influencing the thoughts of those who provide the income to the sport is the only way to make things change, and prosecuting Armstrong would take a huge leap in doing this.
Armstrong made a name for himself and has reaped the financial and social benefits his success has brought. If he knowingly did this through cheating then the risk was his to take, the bigger you are the harder you'll fall.
If he cheated then he needs to be prosecuted. But his prosecution needs to spark a wider clean up of the sport, and the case presents a good opportunity to do so.
 
Dec 1, 2010
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oldschoolnik said:
How about the crime of distributing an FDA regulated and unapproved drug? whether it was effective or not - that is a crime in this country as well it should be otherwise drug companies would sell all their wares to a desperate public looking for cures to what ails them?

What about buying influence with the UCI to be tipped off about when drug tests will be performed? I'm not a lawyer but if it's not a sporting crime it should be.
What do you think my post said? I didn't claim anyone inncocent of crimes.

Let me explain it again: if someone is guilty of a crime, they need to be brought to justice. Being an a-hole is NOT a crime. The investigation will reveal the truth and justice will be served.

But not because LA may or may not be a big meanie who hurt so many feelings. I was commenting that many seem to want him to go down because they think he's a jerk and often leave out the alleged crimes. Make no mistake: I want criminals to be brought to justice. But I'm not really into prosecuting a-holes for being a-holes.

Cheers
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
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gatete said:
Even if proof comes up, I'm willing to bet this two guys are going to say: Well everybody doped............(you know the rest) reminds me of the Chappelle show when Dave refuses to believe OJ and Michael Jackson are guilty even with all the evidences presented at him, by just saying at the very end " my blackness won't allow it" It's comical, I understand they stand behind him because hey, they like the guy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but for the life of me please reframe from saying there are no arguments to suggest LA doped, because then it really insult my intelligence, I'm a fan enough to admit that when Alberto is punish for the things he's done (I know he doped) I'll cheer for him when he comes back, why? well I like the guy, just like I'll be cheering for Basso on July, (probably doping right now) in my case it's a matter of personality, because I like nice people, I simpathyze with their character.

For the end Polish, Flicker, Comeback kid and all the Lance supporters, please support this is a forum, in the end I have to acept your points of views and respect them, just please don't defend when you know he's guilty.

Ciao
Well, in the interest of trashing cycling what country and region do you come from? In the interest of kibbaging and kimmaging I will find a hero from your area to out, as a fraud, fake, douche, maybe even think likes blondes.

Witch hunting popular here.

As for Basso I hope Basso podiums, but I think Contador will be battleing it out with Schleck at the tour. This is in the best interests of cycling, the same as it has always been. Even for my beloved(not such a nice guy) Lance Armstrong.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Lance isn't a nice guy. But he was a good bike rider and was relatively fun to watch.

I have no problem with watching him go down... but truthfully examining my feeling I simply can't say I care.

I don't know any of the people he may have bullied. And while I view that sort of behavior as poor, it's not really all that different then what happens in all sorts of settings every day. It has little impact on me.

When it comes down to it, I view sport as entertainment. Watching a bike race or a NFL game is the same as watching a movie for me. I don't really care if the star of a movie I'm watching is verbally abusing others on the set as long as he gives a good performance. And I really don't care about what a football player or cyclist does either.

Rules are rules... and if they're caught cheating then they should pay the price. But unless I have money on the game/race... I really don't care. I just want to be entertained. Similarly, if a movie gets released under a false rating, I'm okay with them having to pay a fine... but I don't CARE.
 
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