Why it DOES matter that Lance goes down.

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Jul 19, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
One of the worst things he did was to vigorously and ruthlessly try to intimidate and silence people like,
Betsy Andreu - for saying she was motivated by "bitterness, jealousy and hatred".
Greg LeMond - for getting Trek to cut him loose and comments over the years.
David Walsh - for calling him a "f**king troll"...

What other incidents were there?
That has got to be the worst reason for wanting LA to fall.
Expressing his opinion?? What's wrong with that? (whether you agree with Betsys motivation or if he thinks DWalsh is a troll)

If anything, he could be guilty of breaking some law, like drug trafficking.

Every single competitive athlete will use whatever is at his/her disposal to be the "higher, faster, stronger" person in the field. The more world class, the more hard core these resources become. IMHO it's not healthy, but it is what it is.

So LA cheated "more" than everyone else? Yeah he did, he was more willing to take risks, sacrifice, whether it means more training hours, eating better, and doping better.

If he broke the rules or the law, then he should be punished.

Where do you draw the line? A "little" doping like Vino/Basso/Contador is ok?

If the logic behind the anti lance movement is that there's no level field, than everyone should ride only one type of bike, eat the same type of food, and follow the same training regimes. That's the only way that no one has "unfair" advantages.

That LA actually is an sociapath, a**hole, (which btw I happen to agree) shouldn't be the reason to bring him down.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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I could care less about punishment, imprisonment, sanctions, suspensions, and even title revocations. I just want the existence of this extreme fraud to be revealed and recognized.

This fraud has had a synergistic effect. It's virtually deified a mere human being. And it is all based on lies. I just want the lies to end.

That is MY only goal.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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gree0232 said:
Great. I have to respect what you are doing, but stop doing it.

Again, there are agencies that are charged with examining anti-doping violations and NONE has sanctioned Lance despite all the 'evidence' against him.

**** Pound ran WADA and all of its resources resulted in ... no doping conviction of Armstrong.

LeMond, Landis, Walsh, Betsy .... they are not anti-doping standards. And running across them is an obviously painful experience, but it is not a doping violation.
Well Gree you appear to be getting angrier and angrier...... the SI article really hit that nerve.

As for WADA - you do realise they do not sanction anyone, right? That was up to either UCI or the USAC to start an investigation.

I have already shown that the Vrijman report was a whitewash - and here are the comments of COO of USAC Steve Johnson about the EPO found in LA's 99 samples (which is evidence of doping):
To me, this is an issue for the French people. They seemed very concerned about it, and frankly I don't care what they think. And I don't think Lance does either. This is just a publication in a French tabloid newspaper. That's our perspective."
If you are wondering why he might say that, then google Johnson, Thom Wiesel and Armstrong......
 
Aug 7, 2010
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Ethics

It's really simple why it matters that Lance goes down: Ethics or moral principles. If you believe in right and wrong but choose to do wrong you are a criminal or an enabler. If you don't believe in right and wrong, more than likely you are a sociopath. I think the jury is still out on whether Armstrong is a sociopath.

Whenever I talk to people under the age of 40, 80% of them see no problem with lying, cheating and stealing especially when it comes to PEDS. What I usually hear is "It's their bodies, they can put whatever they want in it"

People over the age of 40 usually understand that using PEDS is unethical, That it is lying, cheating and Stealing.

I've always wondered about this age related attitude to ethics.

If you use PEDS you are a cheat. Where does it end? Next step cheat on your wife, steal money from friends, lie to your yourself.

Once you lose your integrity it's gone forever.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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BroDeal said:
Armstrong is the nosferatu that keeps rising from the grave to suck the blood of hope from the sport of cycling. His dark shadow makes the sport's anti-doping efforts an absurdity. Pro Conti peons are being prosecuted for using appetite suppressants while race directors scramble for photo-ops with Armstrong. He needs to be doused with holy water, staked through the heart, his head cut off, his mouth stuffed with garlic, his body burned, and the ashes thrown into clear running water during the noon sunshine of a cloudless day in August.
I like this.

Count me in! :D
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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LanceInMyPants said:
It's really simple why it matters that Lance goes down: Ethics or moral principles. If you believe in right and wrong but choose to do wrong you are a criminal or an enabler. If you don't believe in right and wrong, more than likely you are a sociopath. I think the jury is still out on whether Armstrong is a sociopath.

Whenever I talk to people under the age of 40, 80% of them see no problem with lying, cheating and stealing especially when it comes to PEDS. What I usually hear is "It's their bodies, they can put whatever they want in it"

People over the age of 40 usually understand that using PEDS is unethical, That it is lying, cheating and Stealing.

I've always wondered about this age related attitude to ethics.

If you use PEDS you are a cheat. Where does it end? Next step cheat on your wife, steal money from friends, lie to your yourself.

Once you lose your integrity it's gone forever.
Lance in pants, no disrespect to you but this is professional sport, cycling in particular.

If you have been watching procycling for a while you will understand.

As Jan Ulrich has said,"If you can't add 2+2 I don't know what to say."

I know I mis-quoted Jan(who I respect much) no disrespect to Jan, that is the message.
 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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If you guys don't learn to behave NOW there will be consequences, so play nice, or don't play at all for the coming few days
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
What do you mean by going down?

Do you mean:
(a) Performing an act of a sexual nature?
(b) Being convicted of a crime?
(c) Being convicted of a particular crime?
(d) Being charged with a crime?
(e) Being charged with a particular crime?
(f) Being accused by his federation of doping?
(g) Having a final doping adjudication by CAS?
(h) Having his mommy believed he doped?
(i) Having a particular person or group believe he doped?
(j) Having a certain number of people believe he doped?
(k) Giving YOU the release you long for so, oh so much?

Just what do YOU want Lance to suffer Herr Doktor Maserati?
Well Mark - you appear to be the only one struggling with what I meant, here is my opening post:
I have read some lately and the mantra appears to be that "it doesn't matter".

This thread is sort of the reverse of Polishes thread - what do people want to happen to Lance and why?

I will start........
One of the worst things he did was to vigorously and ruthlessly try to intimidate and silence people like,
Betsy Andreu - for saying she was motivated by "bitterness, jealousy and hatred".
Greg LeMond - for getting Trek to cut him loose and comments over the years.
David Walsh - for calling him a "f**king troll...

What other incidents were there?
To answer your question:
Justice - he should bare the consequences of his actions.

For doping, he should be sanctioned and results taken away, as happens with other riders.
If proven to have purchased, trafficked and distributed PEDs I am happy to let the FDA pursue that.
To all those he bullied he should apologies - because they were right and he was wrong.
He should allow the LAF accounts to be fully opened to the public and explain the $4 million advertising & $2 million travel that makes up part of the 'programmes'.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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LanceInMyPants said:
It's really simple why it matters that Lance goes down: Ethics or moral principles. If you believe in right and wrong but choose to do wrong you are a criminal or an enabler. If you don't believe in right and wrong, more than likely you are a sociopath. I think the jury is still out on whether Armstrong is a sociopath.

Whenever I talk to people under the age of 40, 80% of them see no problem with lying, cheating and stealing especially when it comes to PEDS. What I usually hear is "It's their bodies, they can put whatever they want in it"

People over the age of 40 usually understand that using PEDS is unethical, That it is lying, cheating and Stealing.

I've always wondered about this age related attitude to ethics.

If you use PEDS you are a cheat. Where does it end? Next step cheat on your wife, steal money from friends, lie to your yourself.

Once you lose your integrity it's gone forever.
I think people over age 40 have a deeper understanding that an inherent lack of honesty creates so many more problems than they ever could have understood when they were merely 20. Lies turn into more lies, which tears down trust and respect. Younger people just haven't suffered enough consequences yet to realize this.
 
LanceInMyPants said:
...Whenever I talk to people under the age of 40, 80% of them see no problem with lying, cheating and stealing especially when it comes to PEDS. What I usually hear is "It's their bodies, they can put whatever they want in it"

People over the age of 40 usually understand that using PEDS is unethical, That it is lying, cheating and Stealing.

I've always wondered about this age related attitude to ethics...
I'm surprised by your assessment and as someone significantly under 40, I find it hard to identify with.

But tell me, about how old now are the parents, guardians and teachers of these under-40s? And how old is our old friend LA for that matter? ;)
 
Oct 8, 2010
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Berzin said:
Moose, when I think of the Lance fans I know in my area, mostly aging yuppies who cannot grasp the concept of growing old gracefully or who use any and every situation, whether it's at their jobs or on the weekend rocket ride to show the world they still "have it", cycling offers them very few heroes.

Armstrong has conquered the world of cycling, dominating the most prestigious event in the world a record 7 times. He has conquered the corporate world selling nothing more substantial than the hot air emanating from his rear end.

Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
Wow. Excellent analysis.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Berzin said:
Moose, when I think of the Lance fans I know in my area, mostly aging yuppies who cannot grasp the concept of growing old gracefully or who use any and every situation, whether it's at their jobs or on the weekend rocket ride to show the world they still "have it", cycling offers them very few heroes.

Armstrong has conquered the world of cycling, dominating the most prestigious event in the world a record 7 times. He has conquered the corporate world selling nothing more substantial than the hot air emanating from his rear end.

Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
When I drive home at night, I drive by the park near my house and I see two men coaching Pop Warner football (or pee-wee, probably. The kids are very young). By this point in my commute, it's probably 6:30 at night. It's been dark for an hour.

These two coaches have a set of powerful work-lights set up on the grass. It's completely dark outside. Yet these young kids are doing football skirmishes in the dark. Not only does that say a lot about the coaches, it speaks volumes about the kids' parents. Win at all costs. Even if your kid has to eat dinner at 7:30 PM on a school night.

I have no doubt that this particular team is probably winning most of its games. I see them 3-4 nights per week. And I feel sick when I see it.
 
Berzin said:
Moose, when I think of the Lance fans I know in my area, mostly aging yuppies who cannot grasp the concept of growing old gracefully or who use any and every situation, whether it's at their jobs or on the weekend rocket ride to show the world they still "have it", cycling offers them very few heroes.

Armstrong has conquered the world of cycling, dominating the most prestigious event in the world a record 7 times. He has conquered the corporate world selling nothing more substantial than the hot air emanating from his rear end.

Lance has the same beady-eyed, thinned-lipped determination to "be the best" these type-A personalities do. And like Armstrong, many resort to all manner of cheating, whether it's trading on insider information or getting scripts for testosterone and HgH. And all the while these are the guys that will look a fellow rider who struggles to keep up in the eye and condescendingly tell them they need to work harder.

It's a combination of the Puritan work ethic, a monumental sense of entitlement and the corroded morality that pervades our society that only values winners that is the reason Armstrong is defended so vociferously by his fanboys. They all see themselves in him, only younger.

Armstrong is the apotheosis of the rotten underbelly that is the culmination of the American Dream, the Caucasian Superman who grew up and overcame his dysfunctional, white trash background like a black or latino kid coming out of the projects to become an athletic and corporate boardroom star.

He is the white male version of "Jenny From The Block".
Hard to argue with such a good analysis of the American dream.
If I were Lance from the block, I might counter with "Don't hate the player, hate the game"
 
Oct 25, 2010
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What I also find sad about Lance's fraud (and any other fraud of this sort) is that I am a former racer myself. I've raced in numerous stage races, thousands of criteriums, RR's and TTs, etc. I know that these guys have pedaled every stroke. Truly suffered on the bike. Sacrificed for years (and perhaps decades). And I have immense respect for that, as I've lived it too. And so do all of my fellow competitors. We all know the drill. Bike racing is a sport that is beyond just "difficult". It requires the complete surrender of one's self

And they'd throw all of that respect away, just to gain an edge over a rival, or to snag all the prizes.

A shame that they have so little respect... for themselves and for those who've raced WITH them and shared the suffering and sacrifice.
 
Aug 19, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Well Gree you appear to be getting angrier and angrier...... the SI article really hit that nerve.

As for WADA - you do realise they do not sanction anyone, right? That was up to either UCI or the USAC to start an investigation.

I have already shown that the Vrijman report was a whitewash - and here are the comments of COO of USAC Steve Johnson about the EPO found in LA's 99 samples (which is evidence of doping):

If you are wondering why he might say that, then google Johnson, Thom Wiesel and Armstrong......
Yowsers. I did not know that. Thanks for the tip, Doc.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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And to all other posters. I should have made this clearer in my OP. I don't understand the generational difference regarding ethics. I did not mean to say the younger generation have NO ethics just different views regarding ethics as it pertains to doping in professional sports.
 
Dec 14, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
A shame that they have so little respect... for themselves and for those who've raced WITH them and shared the suffering and sacrifice.
What chaps my @$$ even more in the case of Armstrong is that he 'played the cancer card' to gain even more wealth and fame.

But for me, "el @$$ chap ultimo" is that the "Foundation" he founded (in playing the cancer card) is basically 'all for show', and only a small fraction as effective and truly relevant as it could and should be.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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As Berzin stated Lance did overcome his white trash backround. Cycling is a sport embraced for now primarily by Caucasians true. As seen with golf,cricket,rugby...the number of people from other groups taking part on every level continues to grow..nothing racist just time and circumstance. The part Berzin left out is that Lance's appeal to everybody is what have made him a super star..he has crossed every line..every color barrier. His appear to women that will never get on a bike or a Latina or Black woman that has no interest in cycling is huge. Pretending that Lance's fame is being driven by middle aged weekend white warriors is dumb. The 1000s that watch him on TV or come out to see him in Australia,Ireland or the US are yes primarily white..and so is the majority of the population..I am sure that if he tweets about a fundraising ride in S.America or anywhere in Africa the numbers would be available for use or misuse by Berzin or any other revisionist. He has the wins,records and public following to try and make it a personal flaw because there are lots of white people that follow him..and a real reach by thinking a huge percentage are doing it because he is a rags to riches story is sillier still. The placement of his eyes and the thickness of his lips??Good thing you are not picking the squads for the tour or worlds..we would have Mario Lopez and Tyree on the team instead of the qualified.
 
Oct 8, 2010
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BikeCentric said:
I dunno dude, he's also like The Terminator, even if you set him on fire and burn all his flesh off, freeze him with liquid nitrogen and shatter him, or crush him in a hydraulic press, he just keeps coming back to chase after the blonde chicks that look like Linda Hamilton and his Mom.
I'll be back.
 
May 26, 2010
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Jagers said:
Sorry if this was already posted: Lance's good works matter above all else, even steroids[/URL].
oh dear, it's alright to tell people lies to enrich yourself. guess Gregg Doyel wants a free trip on the jet to the hookers and blow:rolleyes:
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Cobblestones said:
Simeoni

Bassons
You mean that EPO doper and Ferraricustomer without talent who wanted to save his own skin and attacked Lance and his environment FIRST ? :rolleyes:

As I said it many times. Know the whole story and history. Most times Lance just defended, which resulted in attacks.
 
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