Why LA is not a doper (seriously)

Page 7 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
You write a lot yet say little.

You have mentioned in one post 9 people in the room - and then in another post 10!

So.... which is it - if you can't get the basic numbers right it makes a mockery of any statements you write.
 
gree0232 said:
What it really means is that, even when Lance is exonerated, he is not in the eyes of the Lance Haters. Which raises a bigger question, how can he prove his innocence other than by doing exactly what he has done?

Not dump Don Catlin would've been a start
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
gree0232 said:
I have made that exact point. Rumors regarding DiLuca did not matter. What nailed him was a positive dope test.

I can see why other people are so upset with you. You did not make that point at all, in fact you wrote the opposite. The rumors regarding Di Luca did matter because it proves where there is a preponderance of evidence, such as with both Di Luca, that there is a strong likelihood of doping. There are many similarities between DiLuca and Armstrong, including transition from classics to GT rider, association with doping doctors, unbelievable performances, and even support for a cause. And this preponderance of evidence against Armstrong is equally or more damning. Is it enough to sanction Armstrong? No. But, like Di Luca, it is certainly enough for rationally and critically thinking people to ascertain whether he doped or not.
 
May 11, 2009
547
0
0
Digger said:
Show me one, just one report, which says that ten people were in the room.

Well here you go.

"The Andreus' allegation was not supported by any of the eight other people present, including Armstrong's doctor Craig Nichols, [76]"

That is direct quote from Wikpedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Specific_allegations

The fuller story from that sentence is contained in the following link:

http://velonews.com/article/10088

What makes it interesting is that [76] on the end of it. In fact, just about every sentence in there has some kind of citation and from that citation you can read the orginal article or journal entry. In many cases there are other links to other sites that provide rebuttals to your heart content.

Wikpedia is not the end all be all of sources, but if you are genuinely curious about whether Lance doped, I would recommend their bibliography as a beginning. I read every single one of them, and then went looking for things to fill in potential gaps on my own.

Good Luck.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Wiklipedia!! what happened to your 50.1% standard!

Please name the people involved - the 8, 9 or 10 of them.

I have to nip out for a short time so it should give you time to google around and gather 'evidence'.
 
May 11, 2009
547
0
0
elapid said:
I can see why other people are so upset with you. You did not make that point at all, in fact you wrote the opposite. The rumors regarding Di Luca did matter because it proves where there is a preponderance of evidence, such as with both Di Luca, that there is a strong likelihood of doping. There are many similarities between DiLuca and Armstrong, including transition from classics to GT rider, association with doping doctors, unbelievable performances, and even support for a cause. And this preponderance of evidence against Armstrong is equally or more damning. Is it enough to sanction Armstrong? No. But, like Di Luca, it is certainly enough for rationally and critically thinking people to ascertain whether he doped or not.

No e it didn't.

I will say very clearly, the suspicions surrounding DiLuca did not convict him. The positive dope test did.

If the suspicions surrounding him convicted him, he never would have raced this years Giro.

For the record, there are also suspicions, from Greg LeMond no less, that indicate Alberto Contador doped during this year's Tour? Is he guilty now?

Menchov beat a doped DiLuca, such things clearly raise suspicions. Is Menchov guilty?

Levi Leipheimer also used Dr. Ferrari. That raises suspicion, is Levi Leipheimer guilty?

To be very clear, again, suspicion is used to target and provide a verifiable, testable result. That is what happened to DiLuca.

The Anti-doping establishment had ther suspicions about bith what he was using, thus they found and appropriate test, and when he was using it, and THAT allowed them to test and verify the drug use.

Now, when similar suspicion is likewise tested, and no proof is found, that is also exoneration.

Unfortunately, our press only releases those who fail the process, but to assume that there has been no targeting of LA would be in my opinion, a very bad assumption.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
gree0232 said:
Wikpedia is not the end all be all of sources, but if you are genuinely curious about whether Lance doped, I would recommend their bibliography as a beginning. I read every single one of them, and then went looking for things to fill in potential gaps on my own.

Good Luck.

Ya think? That particular Wiki has changed over the last couple of months and was CLEARLY written by someone with ties to Mr Armstrong (or are you unaware that anyone can alter the "source?") I would be willing to bet that someone with ties to Mr Armstrong patrols that Wiki daily for information counter to what he wants the public to read.

I prefer this source: http://tinyurl.com/38q28x

That should fill in some holes.
 
May 11, 2009
547
0
0
Dr. Maserati said:
Wiklipedia!! what happened to your 50.1% standard!

Please name the people involved - the 8, 9 or 10 of them.

I have to nip out for a short time so it should give you time to google around and gather 'evidence'.

http://velonews.com/article/10088

There you go. Now what part of Wikpedia do I cite? The bibliography, for those who are uneducated to go educate themselves.

I could have just posted the second one, but the second one by itself does not offer someone who is genuinely curious multiple sources from both sides of the debate.

So the revelvation that I read multiple sources, including Wikpedia, means that I am an idiot for reading a genaric version along with more specific articles? And that is now the basis upon which Lance's guilt of doping lay?

Gree read Wikipedia, therefor Lance is a doper. I will be sending that one to USADA and WADA as quickly as possible.

I will warn you though, Chuck has been know to steal my mail so it may not make it to WADA.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
gree0232 said:
http://velonews.com/article/10088

There you go. Now what part of Wikpedia do I cite? The bibliography, for those who are uneducated to go educate themselves.

I could have just posted the second one, but the second one by itself does not offer someone who is genuinely curious multiple sources from both sides of the debate.

So the revelvation that I read multiple sources, including Wikpedia, means that I am an idiot for reading a genaric version along with more specific articles? And that is now the basis upon which Lance's guilt of doping lay?

Gree read Wikipedia, therefor Lance is a doper. I will be sending that one to USADA and WADA as quickly as possible.

I will warn you though, Chuck has been know to steal my mail so it may not make it to WADA.

It really is a simple question - how many people were there? 7. 8 . 9 10?
A list of names would be good to!
 
May 11, 2009
547
0
0
Thoughtforfood said:
Ya think? That particular Wiki has changed over the last couple of months and was CLEARLY written by someone with ties to Mr Armstrong (or are you unaware that anyone can alter the "source?") I would be willing to bet that someone with ties to Mr Armstrong patrols that Wiki daily for information counter to what he wants the public to read.

I prefer this source: http://tinyurl.com/38q28x

That should fill in some holes.

Well, there are no citations on that one at all. I did read it though. In the interest of being fair, the one with citations from BOTH sides allows those clamoring for evidence and see the originals themselves.

Or, the can also do what I did and try google searches with key phrases like:

LA doping positives
L'Equip story
Vrijman Report
WADA rebuttal
Armstrong rebutal
IOC actions
Armstrong medical history
Armstrong doubts
Greg Lemond accusations
Lance Armstrong, doping, science
etc. etc. etc.

Wikipedia is just a good place to start for those who are genuinely curious.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Again I will repeat the simple question - how many people were there? 7. 8 . 9 10?
A list of names would be good to!
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
gree0232 said:
Well, Menchov just beat a doped DiLuca. If that line of reasoning is solid, if the center of the arguement surrounding Lance is true, then I would expect the Lance Haters to follow that standard and accuse Menchov as well.

Austria, blood clinic and Menchov
 
May 11, 2009
547
0
0
Dr. Maserati said:
It really is a simple question - how many people were there? 7. 8 . 9 10?
A list of names would be good to!

Well, Doc according the vast majority of the sources that I read, that would be ten. I have consistantly stated as such, and base that statement only on what I have read from mutiple sources.

You too can find the names, including Dr. Nichols in a simple google search. Prove something for yourself for a change.

The names of the ten people, and address, ages, social security numbers, are not really relevant.

What is relevant is that the general pattern is supported by numerous sources, which is that Betsy's (and indeed Frank) was contradicted by numerous sources.

Now, you tell me how many peple you think were there after a bit of research, and we will see whether I was wrong in the specific and general. I will not get sucked into minutia every time there is a point you do not wish to conceed.

Do your research, I;ve done mine. You can start with Wikipedia.
 
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
5
0
BYOP88 said:
gree0232 could you please explain to me how a clean athlete can beat a doped one?

I'll take this one.

All the dope in the world can't turn me into a world class athlete.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
gree0232 said:
Well, Doc according the vast majority of the sources that I read, that would be ten. I have consistantly stated as such, and base that statement only on what I have read from mutiple sources.

You too can find the names, including Dr. Nichols in a simple google search. Prove something for yourself for a change.

The names of the ten people, and address, ages, social security numbers, are not really relevant.

What is relevant is that the general pattern is supported by numerous sources, which is that Betsy's (and indeed Frank) was contradicted by numerous sources.

Now, you tell me how many peple you think were there after a bit of research, and we will see whether I was wrong in the specific and general. I will not get sucked into minutia every time there is a point you do not wish to conceed.

Do your research, I;ve done mine. You can start with Wikipedia.

I know the names - I have done the research thanks.
Yes I do use Wiki quite often - and then crosscheck through other sources.

So - once again I will ask the simple question - how many people were there? 7. 8 . 9 10?
A list of names would be good to!
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Here let me start you off....

1. Lance Armstrong
2 ______________
3. ______________
4. ______________
5. ______________
6. ______________
7._______________
8._______________
9._______________
10.______________
11.______________
12. _____________
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
gree0232 said:
No e it didn't.

I will say very clearly, the suspicions surrounding DiLuca did not convict him. The positive dope test did.

If the suspicions surrounding him convicted him, he never would have raced this years Giro.

For the record, there are also suspicions, from Greg LeMond no less, that indicate Alberto Contador doped during this year's Tour? Is he guilty now?

Menchov beat a doped DiLuca, such things clearly raise suspicions. Is Menchov guilty?

Levi Leipheimer also used Dr. Ferrari. That raises suspicion, is Levi Leipheimer guilty?

To be very clear, again, suspicion is used to target and provide a verifiable, testable result. That is what happened to DiLuca.

The Anti-doping establishment had ther suspicions about bith what he was using, thus they found and appropriate test, and when he was using it, and THAT allowed them to test and verify the drug use.

Now, when similar suspicion is likewise tested, and no proof is found, that is also exoneration.

Unfortunately, our press only releases those who fail the process, but to assume that there has been no targeting of LA would be in my opinion, a very bad assumption.

Firstly, nearly everyone on this forum has strong suspicions about all the riders you mentioned for the same reasons you mentioned and more. You are deluded if the majority of us think otherwise.

Secondly, most of us are comfortable in believing some or all of these riders are guilty based on this preponderance of evidence. We don't require a positive test or a guilty verdict to tell us a certain rider is guilty, because this only confirms our suspicions. You obviously do - and that's OK if you're comfortable with the knowledge that you cannot think for yourself and just believe what you are told.

The I've never tested positive argument is stupid, and is certainly no exoneration from doping. Armstrong is direct proof that that argument is bogus. hCG is on the banned list, the normal hCG level in an adult male is < 0.5, and Armstrong's hCG level at the time of his cancer diagnosis was 109,000 (hCG is a marker for testicular cancer)! Armstrong was tested multiple times before his cancer diagnosis and never tested positive for hCG despite his levels being through the roof. Carl Lewis tested positive three times in the 1988 Olympic trials, along with 19 other American athletes, and none of these positives ever saw the light of day until released by a drug official in 2003 or 2004. So don't tell me that because Armstrong has never tested positive that he is exonerated from all allegations, because that is just a BS argument. Moreover, look at how many riders (and other athletes) have been doping for years and were not caught by doping tests. Nearly every high level cyclist has been caught by either an exposure (Festina, Operation Puerto, BALCO, etc) or a surprise test for a new EPO (such as CERA). HGH and autologous blood transfusions remain undetectable. Indirect signs of doping, which the biological passport system is aimed at, has not detected doping in riders like Kohl, Rebellin, Schumacher, etc. So, again, not testing positive is not an exoneration. Far from it.

And to answer your last question, of course Armstrong has been targeted. The UCI said they would target 50 riders before the TdF. And Armstrong should be on that list considering his very suspect history.

As I have said before, there are people who will analyze and process the information and come to an opinion based on the weight of the evidence. Then there are people like you, who despite saying you have read all the evidence, still believe that this evidence doesn't matter because some external body has not told you he has tested positive. You can live in your CNN world, you're welcome to it.
 
gree0232 said:
Digger said:
Show me one, just one report, which says that ten people were in the room.

Well here you go.

"The Andreus' allegation was not supported by any of the eight other people present, including Armstrong's doctor Craig Nichols, [76]"

That is direct quote from Wikpedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Specific_allegations

The fuller story from that sentence is contained in the following link:

http://velonews.com/article/10088

What makes it interesting is that [76] on the end of it. In fact, just about every sentence in there has some kind of citation and from that citation you can read the orginal article or journal entry. In many cases there are other links to other sites that provide rebuttals to your heart content.

Wikpedia is not the end all be all of sources, but if you are genuinely curious about whether Lance doped, I would recommend their bibliography as a beginning. I read every single one of them, and then went looking for things to fill in potential gaps on my own.

Good Luck.

No way you read through all that stuff. No way. Because again there are too many errors, inaccuracies and downright lies. I have read about doping in cycling for twenty years so I don;t need advice from you about accessing information about Lance doping.

Have you something against books that you have to go to wikipedia sites? You need to keep reading, because there are alot of gaps in your knowledge. The reasons we ask you for these links is simply because we know you're wrong, and you won't be able to find links to support your arguments (outside of wikipedia!!).

I am finally seeing where you are getting your drivel from....Tim Herman, Lance's lawyer!!! :D
You listen to the tape conversation? Or you afraid to in case it actually shows you to be wrong?
People in the room, on public record: Frankie, Betsy, Chris Carnichael, Paige (Chris's girlfriend), Lisa Shields, Stephanie McIllvain

Three people have admitted it happened. Bill Stapleton, Lance's agent and friend, in a taped conversation admits it happened. Yet you can't seem to accept it.

Incidentally, the Doc is right, you have changed the number from 8 to 10 on a number of occasions.

A nice start in even attempting to show he is not doping now, is not dumping Don Catlin's testing programme before it had even started, eventhough he told the world in a press conference, that there would be new levels of transparency. He also released his HCT after a few months, and a few days later changed it. Coincidentally this was also the highest and most suspicious value. Probably just a coincidence though!!!!
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
scribe said:
I'll take this one.

All the dope in the world can't turn me into a world class athlete.

Yet it did for Jan and Vino etc and they still couldn't beat LA.
 
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
5
0
BYOP88 said:
Yet it did for Jan and Vino etc and they still couldn't beat LA.

But that is circumstantial. To go along with lots of other circumstantial evidence. I lean towards cheating as well, given all of the evidence. But I'll wait for a positive test before throwing any of these guys under the bus. The same way I wouldn't convict someone on trial for a crime based on circumstance.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Here let me start you off....

1. Lance Armstrong
2 Betsy Andreu
3. ______________
4. ______________
5. ______________
6. ______________
7._______________
8._______________
9._______________
10.______________
11.______________
12. _____________
 

Eva Maria

BANNED
May 24, 2009
387
0
0
So far only 5 people that were in the room have said what they heard that day. Lance says he did not say it. Betsy, Frankie, Stephanie, and Stapleton all say he did.

Now what about Ashenden? Why does Gree avoid address that a world renowned expert has given an exhaustive, detailed, analysis of why the 99 samples prove Armstrong doped. While his words per post count is huge I have yet to see GreeO address any Ashenden's very valid points.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
gree0232 said:
Well, there are no citations on that one at all. I did read it though. In the interest of being fair, the one with citations from BOTH sides allows those clamoring for evidence and see the originals themselves.

Or, the can also do what I did and try google searches with key phrases like:

LA doping positives
L'Equip story
Vrijman Report
WADA rebuttal
Armstrong rebutal
IOC actions
Armstrong medical history
Armstrong doubts
Greg Lemond accusations
Lance Armstrong, doping, science
etc. etc. etc.

Wikipedia is just a good place to start for those who are genuinely curious.

But for those of us who actually know what we are talking about, it is clear what the Armstrong Wiki is and credible is not a word one would use to describe it, at least to people who have read all of those references plus books plus interviews plus actual reports and not just what Lance says they say. You can call us all "daddy" if you want.