Why not have the TTT near the end of the tour?

[FlyingPortagee]

Lets change things up a bit guys.

 

[Cobblestones]

Some teams might have less than 5 riders by the end. It has happened.

 

[Ferminal]

They should also remove the GC in favour of the Team Classification, all riders on the leading team wear yellow.

Having a TTT late has too great an influence on the individual classification, for obvious reasons.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

They should also remove the GC in favour of the Team Classification, all riders on the leading team wear yellow.

Having a TTT late has too great an influence on the individual classification, for obvious reasons.

What are the Obvious reasons?

 

[Ferminal]

What are the Obvious reasons?

That differences in the ability of teams are distorted by the end of a GT due to withdrawals and recovery. The time gaps would be much bigger if you ran this exact same stage in two and a half weeks time. Not to mention a distinct lack of fairness which would be present - how great it would be for someone to lose the overall because they only have 6 men left.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

That differences in the ability of teams are distorted by the end of a GT due to withdrawals and recovery. The time gaps would be much bigger if you ran this exact same stage in two and a half weeks time. Not to mention a distinct lack of fairness which would be present - how great it would be for someone to lose the overall because they only have 6 men left.

Distorted? They are not distorted! Distorted means to change from original form or shape, to change from being normal. How is putting the TTT at the end of the tour changing from being normal.

 

[cineteq]

Distorted? They are not distorted! Distorted means to change from original form or shape, to change from being normal. How is putting the TTT at the end of the tour changing from being normal.

In short, it won't be fair. Just think about it.

 

[Ferminal]

Distorted? They are not distorted! Distorted means to change from original form or shape, to change from being normal. How is putting the TTT at the end of the tour changing from being normal.

There are unpredictable, random, dynamic elements which influence the race over the course of the three weeks. How is it a true comparison of the teams' abilities when teams will be affected by the preceding three weeks in different ways, due to these uncontrollable elements. You run a TTT on Stage 1 100 times and your results will be far more consistent than if you run it 100 times on Stage 21, with 100 different scenarios from the previous 20 stages.

The fact that this could then be used to influence an individual classification is ridiculous, unless you like seeing sporting outcomes based less on pure strength and ability.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

In short, it won't be fair. Just think about it.

Every other stage in the tour is fair game no matter where you put it, why is the TTT any different?

 

[FlyingPortagee]

There are unpredictable, random, dynamic elements which influence the race over the course of the three weeks. How is it a true comparison of the teams' abilities when teams will be affected by the preceding three weeks in different ways, due to these uncontrollable elements.

The fact that this could then be used to influence an individual classification is ridiculous, unless you like seeing sporting outcomes based less on pure strength and ability.

Individual riders are subject to uncontrollable elements. Everyone is, is the Tour de France a race among individuals or teams? Would s lone rider be able to win without a team, and if not why not let the teams compete at the end of the tour.

 

[cineteq]

Every other stage in the tour is fair game no matter where you put it, why is the TTT any different?

Who wins the Tour a team or an individual? A TTT is a way to have a team contributing to an individual for the overall win. If it's placed at the end, it can have devastating effects on the top GC guys with no time left to recover, rather if it's placed at the beginning it will call for strategy to compensate for the time lost (see Contador).

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Who wins the Tour a team or an individual? A TTT is a way to have a team contributing to an individual for the overall win. If it's placed at the end, it can have devastating effects on the top GC guys with no time left to recover, rather if it's placed at the beginning it will call for strategy to compensate for the time lost (see Contador).

So where is your proof that it has more of a devastating effect at the beginning rather than the end of a grand tour?

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Could you imagine the amount of press it would generate if they decided to put the TTT at the end of the tour, maybe even the last day into Paris.

 

[PCutter]

So where is your proof that it has more of a devastating effect at the beginning rather than the end of a grand tour?

GC guys are GC guys in part because they have stronger powers of recovery over 21 days. The rest of their team are generally not blessed with such powers....which is why they are not GC guys, but specialists (climbers, rolleurs, etc).

Through the course of a GT, most teams drop riders due to injuries, illness, accidents etc. So some teams may be starting a TTT on the final day with 5 or even less riders. If a team has 9 riders left, they automatically have a huge advantage over a team with 5, regardless of how strong/good their GC guy might be. That is why in a TTT most teams try to keep their 9 riders together as long as possible before shelling the weaker riders. Hence, it would be far more devastating on the GC outcome.

 

[Martin318is]

So where is your proof that it has more of a devastating effect at the beginning rather than the end of a grand tour?

This has been answered repeatedly for you:

Different riders will have done different amounts of work by the 3rd week of the Tour. Most teams will have lost 2 or more riders - instant advantage to any team who are 'lucky' enough to keep all their riders upright - some teams will only have 2 riders left!

Are you REALLY trying to suggest that it would be a great idea that if Schleck, Contador, and Evans (for examples) are within a few minutes of each other on the last day that the decision of who wins would be pre-ordained by the team Saxo riders all being ill or more injured by mid Tour crashes than those of the other two teams?

Who wants to watch a race that has one winner where the winner is effectively determined by luck? Why bother cheering them on in the mountains?

A final week individual TT is the team leader themselves ruling their own destiny. WAY more interesting...

 

[FlyingPortagee]

GC guys are GC guys in part because they have stronger powers of recovery over 21 days. The rest of their team are generally not blessed with such powers....which is why they are not GC guys, but specialists (climbers, rolleurs, etc).

Through the course of a GT, most teams drop riders due to injuries, illness, accidents etc. So some teams may be starting a TTT on the final day with 5 or even less riders. If a team has 9 riders left, they automatically have a huge advantage over a team with 5, regardless of how strong/good their GC guy might be. That is why in a TTT most teams try to keep their 9 riders together as long as possible before shelling the weaker riders. Hence, it would be far more devastating on the GC outcome.

Ya man, I know how the whole GC thing works, been watching this thing for 25+ years. You still haven't given a good reason why it would make any difference to have a TTT near the end of the tour. Every team can suffer the same fate on any stage of the tour. A team might be lacking riders on a important mountain stage compared to another team, what is the difference?

 

[FlyingPortagee]

This has been answered repeatedly for you:

Different riders will have done different amounts of work by the 3rd week of the Tour. Most teams will have lost 2 or more riders - instant advantage to any team who are 'lucky' enough to keep all their riders upright - some teams will only have 2 riders left!

Are you REALLY trying to suggest that it would be a great idea that if Schleck, Contador, and Evans (for examples) are within a few minutes of each other on the last day that the decision of who wins would be pre-ordained by the team Saxo riders all being ill or more injured by mid Tour crashes than those of the other two teams?

Who wants to watch a race that has one winner where the winner is effectively determined by luck? Why bother cheering them on in the mountains?

A final week individual TT is the team leader themselves ruling their own destiny. WAY more interesting...

What difference does it make if they are Ill at the beginning or the end of the Tour???

 

[jobiwan]

What difference does it make if they are Ill at the beginning or the end of the Tour???

If they are ill at the beginning, they won't be put on the Tour team

 

[PCutter]

Ya man, I know how the whole GC thing works

Apparently not.

 

[erader]

i think they should put the prologue at the end. of course they'd have to call it the epilogue.

erader

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Apparently not.

GC guys are GC guys in part because they have stronger powers of recovery over 21 days. The rest of their team are generally not blessed with such powers....which is why they are not GC guys, but specialists (climbers, rolleurs, etc).

What the hell does this have to do with where the TTT is placed in the tour?

 

[FlyingPortagee]

i think they should put the prologue at the end. of course they'd have to call it the epilogue.

erader

1989 Greg Lemond wins by 8 seconds over Fignon on the last day of the tour. Prob the greatest tour in history.

 

[sultanofhyd]

What the hell does this have to do with where the TTT is placed in the tour?

You want a TTT with teams having riders who have nothing left in the tank, or even worse, are 3-4 riders short?

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

1989 Greg Lemond wins by 8 seconds over Fignon on the last day of the tour. Prob the greatest tour in history.

Yeah...that wasn't a prologue...

 

[FlyingPortagee]

You want a TTT with teams having riders who have nothing left in the tank, or even worse, are 3-4 riders short?

What difference does it make between teams? Don't they suffer the same fate on mountain stages?