Why not have the TTT near the end of the tour?

[sultanofhyd]

What difference does it make between teams? Don't they suffer the same fate on mountain stages?

Really? Look at Movistar for example, they already have two riders badly bruised who probably won't even make it to the first mountain stage, and 4 others also having kissed the dirt.

And look at BMC, not a single scratch.

Such discrepancies after just two stages. Imagine the sh*tstorm some teams will have to face if they have to team up for a time trial in the final week.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Yeah...that wasn't a prologue...

Not saying that it was, but considering it was one of the greatest finishes ever its surprising they haven't replicated it. LETS HAVE SOME MEANINGFULL TT's PLEASE!!!

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Some teams might have less than 5 riders by the end. It has happened.

quoted for thruth.

TTT in the last week would be terrible and unfair.

 

[sultanofhyd]

Not saying that it was, but considering it was one of the greatest finishes ever its surprising they haven't replicated it. LETS HAVE SOME MEANINGFULL TT's PLEASE!!!

Err that was an ITT. And apart from 2009, we have always had an ITT as the last decisive stage in the final week with meaningless flat stages to follow. What more do you want? Two ITT's back to back?

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

What difference does it make between teams? Don't they suffer the same fate on mountain stages?

Not every team loses as many riders to crashes. This both makes the results skewed and risks that some teams may have less than 5 riders and will be forced to drop out all together.

 

[ingsve]

What difference does it make between teams? Don't they suffer the same fate on mountain stages?

No. The difference between having lost a few team mates on a mountain stage and in a TTT are not even comparable. If you lose three riders on your team it won't really be noticeable on a mountain stage where it's the leaders legs that are the deciding factor in the end. But having 6 riders on a TTT when other teams have 9 is a huge disadvantage.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

quoted for thruth.

TTT in the last week would be terrible and unfair.

Why would it be terriblel and unfair? Because you said so?

 

[sultanofhyd]

Why would it be terriblel and unfair? Because you said so?

Because all teams won't be at their maximum strength, and their leaders will lose time due to no fault of their own.

TDF is an individual sport, teams are just there to help the leader, teams should not be the overriding factor in a GC battle.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

No. The difference between having lost a few team mates on a mountain stage and in a TTT are not even comparable. If you lose three riders on your team it won't really be noticeable on a mountain stage where it's the leaders legs that are the deciding factor in the end. But having 6 riders on a TTT when other teams have 9 is a huge disadvantage.

I'm saying there is no difference between the two, where is your proof that it matters more for a TTT than a mountain stage?

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Because all teams won't be at their maximum strength, and their leaders will lose time due to no fault of their own.

TDF is an individual sport, teams are just there to help the leader, teams should not be the overriding factor in a GC battle.

You claim its an individual sport but in the same sentence you say its not. WTF

 

[ElChingon]

I say have a flat TTT and a Climbing TTT, well at least with a Cat 3 or 2 climb. Lets see who beats Euskatel definitely puts a whole new TT specialty in doesn't it

 

[M Sport]

I would rather argue or discuss taking the TTT out altogether instead of moving it around from week one to week three.

Boring, waste of time and sometimes skews the results (thankfully not this year).

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

euskatel wouldn't win that ttt either.

Why would it be terriblel and unfair? Because you said so?

How hard is it to understand the concept that less riders would result in an unfair advantage. TTT would be far to decisive in the final week.

And like mentioned teams have had less then 5 riders in the past in the final week. I can imagine some pretty crappy situations evolving from your brilliant idea.

 

[jobiwan]

I'm saying there is no difference between the two, where is your proof that it matters more for a TTT than a mountain stage?

It's called common sense.

For instance, Alberto Contador is the best stage racer on the planet.

In Stage 1, he got caught behind a crash, couldn't get back due to a lack of teammates around him.
In Stage 2, he had a weaker team in the TTT, lost 20 seconds.

In the mountains, Contador (and most of the mountain goats) needs a team only to get him to the final climb.

Contador, Schleck, Gesink, etc. don't care where their teammates finish in the mountains, yet in TTT's they REALLY CARE where their teammates finish.

Simply put, in TTTs a climber needs lots of help (See A. Schleck). In mountains he needs minimal to no help at all.

There's your proof

 

[ingsve]

I'm saying there is no difference between the two, where is your proof that it matters more for a TTT than a mountain stage?

 

[ElChingon]

euskatel wouldn't win that ttt either.





How hard is it to understand the concept that less riders would result in an unfair advantage. TTT would be far to decisive in the final week.

And like mentioned teams have had less then 5 riders in the past in the final week. I can imagine some pretty crappy situations evolving from your brilliant idea.

Euskatel would be a contender!

You have to admit the remaining riders would be the strong riders so still a good competition.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

I'm saying there is no difference between the two, where is your proof that it matters more for a TTT than a mountain stage?

Up a mountain, there is less wind resistance due to lower speeds; therefore, drafting does not play a huge part. So, a team leader would not need too many domestiques. Plus, in the times when he needs to be in the draft, he can just draft of off other teams. In a TTT, having 6 riders I stead of 9 means that the leader would have to do 50% more work during the stage.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

euskatel wouldn't win that ttt either.





How hard is it to understand the concept that less riders would result in an unfair advantage. TTT would be far to decisive in the final week.

And like mentioned teams have had less then 5 riders in the past in the final week. I can imagine some pretty crappy situations evolving from your brilliant idea.

and how hard is it to understand that less riders would result in an unfair advantage on a mountain stage? It might just be far to decisive in the final week! But hey lets not take that into consideration.

 

[PCutter]

I'm saying there is no difference between the two, where is your proof that it matters more for a TTT than a mountain stage?

How does it make a difference. Assume the extreme of a GC rider losing all 8 of his team members, so he's the only rider left to do the TTT at the end. Unlikely, but possible. Using Bradley Wiggins (a strong individual TTer and probably the strongest on his team) as an example. In the Dauphine ITT he covered the course at an average speed of 45.8kmh. Yesterday his team of 9 men covered the course at an average speed of 55.7kmh. If he was riding the 23km course at his average speed from the Dauphine he would have lost around 5 minutes. This is further backed up by the fact that Bernie Eisel lost just over 5 minutes after he was dropped in the first corner of the TTT yesterday. So the difference between have a full team and a depleated team is huge. Not 5 minutes (on this course), but somewhere in there.

Why is this different to going up a mountain without your team. A thing called aerodynamics. It a TTT you can only use your own team to break the wind. In a mountain stage (appart from the fact they're going slower so aero isn't as important) you can sit behind anyone you chose (Levi style). Do that in a TTT and the commissaire will pull you out.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Up a mountain, there is less wind resistance due to lower speeds; therefore, drafting does not play a huge part. So, a team leader would not need too many domestiques. Plus, in the times when he needs to be in the draft, he can just draft of off other teams. In a TTT, having 6 riders I stead of 9 means that the leader would have to do 50% more work during the stage.

It doesn't matter weather its less wind resistance or not. if its 20% less resistance or not doesn't matter because it still takes the same amount or riders up front to break that wind regardless of the stage profile. Nothing is different for any team at the tour. They all face the same circumstances.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Euskatel would be a contender!

You have to admit the remaining riders would be the strong riders so still a good competition.

i don't doubt they'd be up there. But for all thier climbing hype, they often have few riders up at the front when it counts. Would be a great TTT tho, if early and somewhat short.

and how hard is it to understand that less riders would result in an unfair advantage on a mountain stage? It might just be far to decisive in the final week! But hey lets not take that into consideration.

yeah did I say anything about a mountain stage? Learn to ready maybe

Anyway regarding mountains, it matters less if you have a fulll team in the mountains, but rather if your good mountain domestiques are there.
But even without support, riders can follow other teams, although not ideal, it is not the worst thing. It is some what common to see a decent GC man without mountain support.

In a TTT a lot of teams were 55kmp/hr + yesterday.

How many indivduals do you know can match that over 23km

 

[FlyingPortagee]

How does it make a difference. Assume the extreme of a GC rider losing all 8 of his team members, so he's the only rider left to do the TTT at the end. Unlikely, but possible. Using Bradley Wiggins (a strong individual TTer and probably the strongest on his team) as an example. In the Dauphine ITT he covered the course at an average speed of 45.8kmh. Yesterday his team of 9 men covered the course at an average speed of 55.7kmh. If he was riding the 23km course at his average speed from the Dauphine he would have lost around 5 minutes. This is further backed up by the fact that Bernie Eisel lost just over 5 minutes after he was dropped in the first corner of the TTT yesterday. So the difference between have a full team and a depleated team is huge. Not 5 minutes (on this course), but somewhere in there.

Why is this different to going up a mountain without your team. A thing called aerodynamics. It a TTT you can only use your own team to break the wind. In a mountain stage (appart from the fact they're going slower so aero isn't as important) you can sit behind anyone you chose (Levi style). Do that in a TTT and the commissaire will pull you out.

So then why does every team with GC aspirations hire climbers to help the team leader in the big mountain stages? Answer: because it does make a huge difference to the final outcome of the tour. Ya, hopefully you sit behind Levi while Horner is ripping open your stomach and asking you how it feels.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

i don't doubt they'd be up there. But for all thier climbing hype, they often have few riders up at the front when it counts. Would be a great TTT tho, if early and somewhat short.



yeah did I say anything about a mountain stage? Learn to ready maybe

Anyway regarding mountains, it matters less if you have a fulll team in the mountains, but rather if your good mountain domestiques are there.
But even without support, riders can follow other teams, although not ideal, it is not the worst thing. It is some what common to see a decent GC man without mountain support.

In a TTT a lot of teams were 55kmp/hr + yesterday.

How many indivduals do you know can match that over 23km

So wait a minute before a laugh my *** off. Your saying it matters less if you have a full team in the mountains, but more if the mountain domestiques are there, what about the Time Trial domestiques for a final TT. What is the difference? Thats right, no difference!

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

So then why does every team with GC aspirations hire climbers to help the team leader in the big mountain stages? Answer: because it does make a huge difference to the final outcome of the tour. Ya, hopefully you sit behind Levi while Horner is ripping open your stomach and asking you how it feels.

Go look at the tour teams, most strong teams have a good mix of the ITT and strong climbers.

The advantage of climbers is to isolate your oppononets and provide support to the team leader. This although an advantage is not necessary a deal breaker, look at AC at the giro.
But that isn't such the issue, we all know having more mountain men is a big big advantage, in the case of a TTT discussion the point was numbers alone are important.
could you imagine 5 euskatel guys taking on a full garmin team in a TTT. I'd be worried. Now can you imagine the same 5 in the mountains. That is less concerning.

 

[FlyingPortagee]

Go look at the tour teams, most strong teams have a good mix of the ITT and strong climbers.

The advantage of climbers is to isolate your oppononets and provide support to the team leader. This although an advantage is not necessary a deal breaker, look at AC at the giro.
But that isn't such the issue, we all know having more mountain men is a big big advantage, in the case of a TTT discussion the point was numbers alone are important.
could you imagine 5 euskatel guys taking on a full garmin team in a TTT. I'd be worried. Now can you imagine the same 5 in the mountains. That is less concerning.

Sorry dude, but a major advantage of having good climbers on your team is to pace you up to the front!!