Why not just hand the title over to the person with the highest Vo2 max?

[RightWingNutJob]

I am reading a ton about all this Vo2 max stuff on this forum. Kinda sounds like a Viagra on steroids.
Anyway, has any athlete with a lower Vo2 max beaten another with a higher Vo2 max?

 

[BigBoat]

Why not just hand the title over to the person with the highest Vo2 max?

You do. Plus or minus one or two ml...

 

[Parrot23]

Plus or minus one or two ml...

LOL,

Plus or minus several hundred millilitres of the the good stuff. No, not Jack Daniels, but one's own blood. We call it the "Red"--ahem--"Double Cross".

The funny stuff goes on around the Dauphine, strategic withdrawals before or after, not sure which. It's ATM time.

 

[hfer07]

I am reading a ton about all this Vo2 max stuff on this forum. Kinda sounds like a Viagra on steroids.
Anyway, has any athlete with a lower Vo2 max beaten another with a higher Vo2 max?

let's see..
Lemond- with the highest Vo2 max(92) was trashed by Indurain (88) under his reign, but then in 96 Indurain was beaten by Riis (mister 60%) & a couple years later LA just demolished everybody with a mere 83.5 Vo2 max
Any Questions?

 

[ambrose]

I Anyway, has any athlete with a lower Vo2 max beaten another with a higher Vo2 max?

lol i think thats where tatics and all that come in

 

[RightWingNutJob]

let's see..
Lemond- with the highest Vo2 max(92) was trashed by Indurain (88) under his reign, but then in 96 Indurain was beaten by Riis (mister 60%) & a couple years later LA just demolished everybody with a mere 83.5 Vo2 max
Any Questions?

Sure, I have one. What determines a persons Vo2 max. I thought I read somewhere that Lemond said that it could change?

 

[BroDeal]

You need to separate GTs from one day races. Voeckler does not have a very big engine, yet he occasionally wins. Over the course of a GT the cream (a combination of best power to weight and best power to drag) will rise to the top. I think plus or minus 1 - 2 ml/kg is too tight of a range.

 

[BigBoat]

Those are undoped values. All would have been 96+ during their "reigns". Besides Lemond, Hinault, all before the first epo Tour 1991.

V02 max guys... JACKS through the roof with epo use/ blood doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"Why not just hand the title over to the person with the highest Vo2 max?"

..... but then we would have nothing to discuss on the forum!!

 

[RightWingNutJob]

"Why not just hand the title over to the person with the highest Vo2 max?"

..... but then we would have nothing to discuss on the forum!!

Very True.

 

[karlboss]

wrong wrong wrong

This thread frustrates me. Yes riders with a lower Vo2 max can win.
1. Because Vo2 max is at max heartrate, noone races there for more than a few seconds.
2. Some riders can sustain efforts closer to their Vo2 than others.
3. Vo2 measures are a measure of how much o2 is being used, it doesn't determine how much of this is being transfrerred into mechanical energy, most of it is transferred to heat.
4. Human efficiency is about 20% to 25% that is substantial, see point above. This effect is more marked in sports where technique is more important ie running.
There is a short version of the physiology of why it is possible for a rider with lower Vo2 max to beat one with a higher value. If you need more info ask.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I am reading a ton about all this Vo2 max stuff on this forum. Kinda sounds like a Viagra on steroids.
Anyway, has any athlete with a lower Vo2 max beaten another with a higher Vo2 max?

Of course, happens all the time. At all levels of racing.

That's because VO2 Max is not the only physiological determinant of a rider's performance potential. One can have a higher VO2 Max but produce less power per kg of body mass than another rider because they are naturally less efficient, or cannot sustain as high a percentage of VO2 Max at threshold.

None of the above has anything to do with doping - it's just a physiological reality. VO2 Max is only one leg of a triangular aerobic performance stool. You need the other two legs (efficiency and % of VO2 max at threshold) as well in order to predict performance potential.

Power at threshold is a far better physiological indicator of performance.

And this is only the physiological. There are many strategic, tactical, psychological, experience, and physical factors that also determine performance outcomes.

 

[BigBoat]

Of course, happens all the time. At all levels of racing.

That's because VO2 Max is not the only physiological determinant of a rider's performance potential. One can have a higher VO2 Max but produce less power per kg of body mass than another rider because they are naturally less efficient, or cannot sustain as high a percentage of VO2 Max at threshold.

None of the above has anything to do with doping - it's just a physiological reality. VO2 Max is only one leg of a triangular aerobic performance stool. You need the other two legs (efficiency and % of VO2 max at threshold) as well in order to predict performance potential.

Power at threshold is a far better physiological indicator of performance.

And this is only the physiological. There are many strategic, tactical, psychological, experience, and physical factors that also determine performance outcomes.

Power at threshold per kilo wins Grand Tours and road races no doubt, but V02 max is the ceiling for threshold. Once everybody knows how to pedal, and they have been training properly for some time...V02 max is pretty much it. Not saying somebody with a 90 Vo2 max couldnt be beat by a dude with an 88. But Somebody with an 81 V02 max will have no chance in hell at the pro level against somebody with a 92, unless the 92 man was a genius and had no team.

 

[lostintime]

Why not just hand the title over to the person with the highest Vo2 max?


I know one day my body is going to die, so why bother living?

Science doesn't know jack sh!!. Yes, you read that right. So what if someone has a higher whatever. . . it forgets all the intangibles. . . and intangibles are what make up life.

Outcomes are never known. It doesn't matter who should could or would win . . . on paper all looks so black and white. In real life. . . in the moment . . . all that is thrown out the window.

As they say in America ..... "That's why they play the Game".

 

[Eldrack]

Can't just think about Vo2 max, gotta take into account efficiency as well. Also some peoples thresholds are a higher percentage of Vo2 max than others. Then there's all the tactics and techinical skills that make cycling interesting to watch so you might as well run the race and hand the title to the person who finishes first.

 

[karlboss]

Power at threshold per kilo wins Grand Tours and road races no doubt, but V02 max is the ceiling for threshold. Once everybody knows how to pedal, and they have been training properly for some time...V02 max is pretty much it. Not saying somebody with a 90 Vo2 max couldnt be beat by a dude with an 88. But Somebody with an 81 V02 max will have no chance in hell at the pro level against somebody with a 92, unless the 92 man was a genius and had no team.

Actually if you use numbers at either end of the scale (22 and 26%)thermal efficiency, and if the more efficient rider can hold 5% closer to their Vo2max it is well and truly possible for a rider with a Vo2max of 81 to have a higher sustainable power than a rider with Vo2 max of 92.

 

[nobody]

Actually if you use numbers at either end of the scale (22 and 26%)thermal efficiency, and if the more efficient rider can hold 5% closer to their Vo2max it is well and truly possible for a rider with a Vo2max of 81 to have a higher sustainable power than a rider with Vo2 max of 92.

But could we find world athletes in endurance sport with a 22% thermal efficiency?
I would believe they are all closer of the best thermal efficiency!

 

[BigBoat]

Science doesn't know jack sh!!.

I disagree.

 

[BigBoat]

Actually if you use numbers at either end of the scale (22 and 26%)thermal efficiency, and if the more efficient rider can hold 5% closer to their Vo2max it is well and truly possible for a rider with a Vo2max of 81 to have a higher sustainable power than a rider with Vo2 max of 92.

The guy with the 92 V02 max would have to be "pedaling squares" and out of shape... to speak in plain english. LOL

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder what you would find if you tested to see how long someone could go at 90 or 95 percent of max.

 

[slcbiker]

The guy with the 92 V02 max would have to be "pedaling squares" and out of shape... to speak in plain english. LOL

Sort of like Ullrich looked much of the time?

 

[Anonymous]

let's see..
Lemond- with the highest Vo2 max(92) was trashed by Indurain (88) under his reign, but then in 96 Indurain was beaten by Riis (mister 60%) & a couple years later LA just demolished everybody with a mere 83.5 Vo2 max
Any Questions?

Lance never raced against Indurain or Lemond.

 

[Zoncolan]

Lance never raced against Indurain or Lemond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1EYB-VzVI&feature=PlayList&p=AAFD01C961A629DD&index=0&playnext=1

 

[mattswabb]

Lance never raced against Indurain or Lemond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_UCI_Road_World_Championships

 

[Anonymous]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_UCI_Road_World_Championships

Interesting. I stand corrected.

At the height of Ingurain's powers.

And it was before the 23 and under catagory.. lol

[sarcasm on] of course this doesn't prove that he might have the talent go on to win multiple tours. [sarcasm off]