why spain produces so many talents?

[python]

i know I know it’s a controversial question and i even wanted to create a poll to keep it inside some meaningful speculation limits.

yeah .. superior doping doctors, legal loophole till recently, dope friendly fed etc etc. whatever. but seriously is it all enough to explain 3 spaniards on the top of the uci rankings and spain dominating nation roster? france and italy are also bike mad but they can’t match spain.

Why?

is there some special obsession with velo or it’s a superior youth selection system? is spanish terrain and climate a factor ? Is it something else? opinions of those living in spain would be especially interesting.

What do you think.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Doping at amateur, espoir and junior level in Spain makes the pros look good.

 

[Anonymous]

government protected doping policy...

 

[Race Radio]

It is because they train harder, pedal at higher rpm, and believe in miracles.

 

[fatandfast]

20 % unemployment,great climate, great riding conditions and many cheap rural places to live....and health care. And their food is good also.

 

[Cogombre]

why spain produces so many talents?

Oh, how don't you know it? We're a superior race, a brave bunch of bullfighters, and nobody, nobody, will beat us!!! Yeah, and we have the best wine, the best rice, the best sun, etc, etc.

Meh, seriously, the reason isn't far from:

government protected doping policy...

 

[Hugh Januss]

Didn't you kind of give away the correct answer by asking the question in the clinic?

 

[hfer07]

why spain produces so many Cycling talents?
the same reason USA produced a 7 times TDF winner.

P.S. the commentary has no political meaning

 

[issoisso]

government protected doping policy...

This.

As one of Matxin's assistants at Fuji once said when questioned about the team signing unknown riders: "There are few good young riders in spain that we can trust, and the very good ones we can't trust at all, so we have to look in strange places".

 

[icefire]

government protected doping policy...

Almost... I would say government not caring about doping policy. If I were the goverment I would care more about soccer referees than about dopers. They have a bigger impact in people's mood and the country's economy.

 

[Martinello]

Blind sponsors

One could however argue that in a society with limited educational possibilities for the less wealthy and a prospect of life-long working career as a farm hand would encourage youngsters to pursue a career within sports.

Although the chances of making it as a pro bike rider or footballer are very small, the alternatives may be less attractive. This is opposed to people from richer countries or wealthier backgrounds where no-one would ever spend 10 years of their youth racing for petty cash at kermesse races when they could educate themselves.

In some countries, being a pro athlete is simply the only way out of relative poverty which probably does a a good job at motivating people. In the more affluent countries of Europe, many people wouldn't consider a pro contract of ie. 10-15.000€/year if the alternative was to get a college/university degree or a decent job as a craftsman.

 

[issoisso]

Blind sponsors

One could however argue that in a society with limited educational possibilities for the less wealthy and a prospect of life-long working career as a farm hand would encourage youngsters to pursue a career within sports.

Although the chances of making it as a pro bike rider or footballer are very small, the alternatives may be less attractive. This is opposed to people from richer countries or wealthier backgrounds where no-one would ever spend 10 years of their youth racing for petty cash at kermesse races when they could educate themselves.

In some countries, being a pro athlete is simply the only way out of relative poverty which probably does a a good job at motivating people. In the more affluent countries of Europe, many people wouldn't consider a pro contract of ie. 10-15.000€/year if the alternative was to get a college/university degree or a decent job as a craftsman.

The problem with that argument is that spain isn't a poor eastern european country, so none of that applies. Unless you happen to believe the laughably innacurate bullcrap of idiot authors like Dan Brown

That's a fine description for easter european countries, though

 

[skidmark]

doping aside, it's hard to draw that conclusion from a few samples. I mean, Contador may be the best GT talent of his generation, and Valverde might be the best all-rounder of his generation, even on an even playing field. That these two incredible talents happen to be from the same country could give the impression that something systematic about that country is making a difference. But it might not. I mean, look at Luxembourg. They've been low on the cycling radar for 50 years since Charly Gaul, but all of a sudden they happen to throw up 3 very talented riders and they're ranked in the top 10 countries despite the fact that they can't even field close to a full team for the worlds. Are we to conclude that suddenly Luxembourg has a world-class doping program and that can explain their few bright lights? I'm more inclined to believe that it's just a couple of uber-talents that happen to be from the same place that is creating this perspective.

That's not to say that the Spanish don't dope, or that the Luxembourgeois don't, but I don't know if it would make that much of a difference. Talent is talent - a more interesting question is why France, with such a rich cycling pedigree, hasn't had a dominant GT contender since Hinault and Fignon, and hasn't had an overall dominant rider since Jalabert. That may be a more salient question to analyze in the clinic.

 

[Cogombre]

doping aside, it's hard to draw that conclusion from a few samples. I mean, Contador may be the best GT talent of his generation, and Valverde might be the best all-rounder of his generation, even on an even playing field. That these two incredible talents happen to be from the same country could give the impression that something systematic about that country is making a difference. But it might not. I mean, look at Luxembourg. They've been low on the cycling radar for 50 years since Charly Gaul, but all of a sudden they happen to throw up 3 very talented riders and they're ranked in the top 10 countries despite the fact that they can't even field close to a full team for the worlds. Are we to conclude that suddenly Luxembourg has a world-class doping program and that can explain their few bright lights? I'm more inclined to believe that it's just a couple of uber-talents that happen to be from the same place that is creating this perspective.

That's not to say that the Spanish don't dope, or that the Luxembourgeois don't, but I don't know if it would make that much of a difference. Talent is talent - a more interesting question is why France, with such a rich cycling pedigree, hasn't had a dominant GT contender since Hinault and Fignon, and hasn't had an overall dominant rider since Jalabert. That may be a more salient question to analyze in the clinic.

I understand your point, and I'm not trying to refute it, but keep in mind that "the amazing talent" of the riders you made reference of come from the same clinic.

I don't now what would they be able to do in a clean field, but when so much talent comes from a country, and this country is openly protecting dopers of any sport, then 2+2=...

 

[yakko!]

apparently it's just part of their cycling culture.

 

[luckyboy]

I'm more inclined to believe that it's just a couple of uber-talents that happen to be from the same place that is creating this perspective.

That's not to say that the Spanish don't dope, or that the Luxembourgeois don't, but I don't know if it would make that much of a difference. Talent is talent - a more interesting question is why France, with such a rich cycling pedigree, hasn't had a dominant GT contender since Hinault and Fignon, and hasn't had an overall dominant rider since Jalabert. That may be a more salient question to analyze in the clinic.

I think this post is pretty fair. This thread is like asking why are Brazil so good at football..

Anyway, about France - it's not pre-ordained that just because countries have had GC riders in the past, they will always have them in every generation.

I mean, Ireland had no big GT GC guys until the 80s, then won GTs in 87, 88, and have had none in 20 years. Switzerland had Romiger and Zulle and now have no GT riders. Belgium - Merckx, Van Impe, Maertens, Pollentier and I'm sure one or two other guys won GTs, but they haven't had a GT winner since the 70s.

I think it's a case of the right riders at the right time.

 

[HoustonHammer]

That's not to say that the Spanish don't dope, or that the Luxembourgeois don't, but I don't know if it would make that much of a difference. Talent is talent - a more interesting question is why France, with such a rich cycling pedigree, hasn't had a dominant GT contender since Hinault and Fignon, and hasn't had an overall dominant rider since Jalabert. That may be a more salient question to analyze in the clinic.

This is the key question. It takes my breath away a bit to think it, but it actually appears that France is lagging because they have taken anti-doping as seriously as they have. Where does the current generation of PEDs pay the greatest dividends? Stage race GT's. And where does France most glaringly fall short of other big cycling nations?

Cycling draws top-calibre athletes in France, and it is a nation with the population base and institutional support to produce great riders. To me, the lack of top-flight GC contenders in the current generation really points to doping policy.

 

[skidmark]

This is the key question. It takes my breath away a bit to think it, but it actually appears that France is lagging because they have taken anti-doping as seriously as they have. Where does the current generation of PEDs pay the greatest dividends? Stage race GT's. And where does France most glaringly fall short of other big cycling nations?

Cycling draws top-calibre athletes in France, and it is a nation with the population base and institutional support to produce great riders. To me, the lack of top-flight GC contenders in the current generation really points to doping policy.

Exactly. I don't disagree with the points that others have made in response to what I wrote, and I can admit that I don't know enough about the breadth of 'doping quality improvements' that there might be in the sport, or first hand information of how much doping can improve performance, to draw a really solid conclusion about any of this.

My point is that Spain is largely on top of the world rankings because of their 2 (or 3, if you count Sanchez, which you probably should) biggest talents, who are very, very good at winning bike races. Assuming that doping is not uncommon in the peloton today (and I have enough cynicism to definitely believe that), and that the differences in the quality of dope that various top riders might get is not too huge (this is the one that's stretching it, I really don't know), Valv and Contador are above the rest, on a (somewhat) level playing field, and this is skewing the rankings towards Spain looking good in general. Every contextual bit of knowledge I have points to more of a laissez faire attitude in Spain towards individual riders doping, so it's possible that it's more widespread there, and it's possible that it makes a difference in their results in general in the past 10-15 years. But I'm just saying, if they're head and shoulders above the rest, I don't think it's all due to way better and more widespread doping than other countries, but at least partly to the fact that they have some really dominant riders at the moment, doped or not.

With regards to France, I'm not sure that the opposite argument applies, namely that they just don't happen to have a few talents at the top of the game right now. France has as rich a cycling history as any country, comparable to only Italy and Belgium with regards to both great champions and depth of great champions. Yet who of the current French riders has the most prestigious palmeres? Honestly, think about it. I really think that it's Christophe Moreau, and no one would compare him to anything more than a moderate talent who has had some success in some good races. Really, who else? Chavanel? Moncoutie? Fedrigo? Nobody from France has won any monuments or GTs in a good number of years, or even podiumed in GTs, as far as I can remember off the top of my head. There is nothing that I've seen to explain this ridiculous underperformance from the country with arguably the richest cycling pedigree in the world, other than that they haven't kept up on the dope. It doesn't seem like French fans are any less rabid about cycling (although the general public seems to have cooled a bit since Festina), and it doesn't seem like they aren't producing as many pro-quality riders. Nothing seems to be wrong with the system except the possible explanation that they're behind in doping.

I hope someone who has more in-depth knowledge can back me up or prove me wrong, because I'm just some guy from Canada who's reading between the lines of everything I've absorbed in my last 5 years of cycle fandom.

 

[python]

Exactly. I don't disagree with the points that others have made in response to what I wrote, and I can admit that I don't know enough about the breadth of 'doping quality improvements' that there might be in the sport, or first hand information of how much doping can improve performance, to draw a really solid conclusion about any of this.

My point is that Spain is largely on top of the world rankings because of their 2 (or 3, if you count Sanchez, which you probably should) biggest talents, who are very, very good at winning bike races. Assuming that doping is not uncommon in the peloton today (and I have enough cynicism to definitely believe that), and that the differences in the quality of dope that various top riders might get is not too huge (this is the one that's stretching it, I really don't know), Valv and Contador are above the rest, on a (somewhat) level playing field, and this is skewing the rankings towards Spain looking good in general. Every contextual bit of knowledge I have points to more of a laissez faire attitude in Spain towards individual riders doping, so it's possible that it's more widespread there, and it's possible that it makes a difference in their results in general in the past 10-15 years. But I'm just saying, if they're head and shoulders above the rest, I don't think it's all due to way better and more widespread doping than other countries, but at least partly to the fact that they have some really dominant riders at the moment, doped or not.

With regards to France, I'm not sure that the opposite argument applies, namely that they just don't happen to have a few talents at the top of the game right now. France has as rich a cycling history as any country, comparable to only Italy and Belgium with regards to both great champions and depth of great champions. Yet who of the current French riders has the most prestigious palmeres? Honestly, think about it. I really think that it's Christophe Moreau, and no one would compare him to anything more than a moderate talent who has had some success in some good races. Really, who else? Chavanel? Moncoutie? Fedrigo? Nobody from France has won any monuments or GTs in a good number of years, or even podiumed in GTs, as far as I can remember off the top of my head. There is nothing that I've seen to explain this ridiculous underperformance from the country with arguably the richest cycling pedigree in the world, other than that they haven't kept up on the dope. It doesn't seem like French fans are any less rabid about cycling (although the general public seems to have cooled a bit since Festina), and it doesn't seem like they aren't producing as many pro-quality riders. Nothing seems to be wrong with the system except the possible explanation that they're behind in doping.

I hope someone who has more in-depth knowledge can back me up or prove me wrong, because I'm just some guy from Canada who's reading between the lines of everything I've absorbed in my last 5 years of cycle fandom.

+1
good post. you're looking at the same issues i'm curious about. it would be interesting to read someone's review of spain's state of road racing in terms of licensed riders, number of junior and u23 riders. how it compares to the other cycle mad nations etc etc.

i'm as cynical as anyone on doping but one single tenet imo can not explain the abundance of talent spain produced.

 

[DavidVilla7]

Spain is not only superior in cycling.
They have a lot talents and champions in every sport.

 

[poupou]

Spain is not only superior in cycling.
They have a lot talents and champions in every sport.

Could it be explain by the statement of Fuentes' wife about the different sports linked to Operation Puerto?

 

[2beacoup]

1. spain seems to not only have a lot of cycling talents. they seem to be very good at tennis and football, too.

2. what irritates me is the fact, that if you look at the results of junior and u23 championships (world + european, tt + rr) they are much more balanced between country than they are in the elite category. (speaking of talent...)

 

[blackcat]

who remembers Miguel Martin Perdiguero, aka "Perdi".

He nearly won the Palm d'Or or whatever is the best film for 2005. He went on a rampage. He was building up in 2004, and then just went au bloc all season.

How the heck can someone do that?

For the same reason Mayo blows everyone's doors off, up Alpe d'Huez. They get on good programs.

The dope does it, I am convinced.

But the Spaniards are not alone, everyone has the same opportunity to take the plunge. Spain has an easier enforcement policy to subvert.

 

[olimpic]

Spain is not only superior in cycling.
They have a lot talents and champions in every sport.

They even won the cross country skiing 30k in the 2002 olympic.... ooohh wait

 

[movingtarget]

Spain's Success

I don't buy the sociological argument. There is also poverty in other countries including France, Belgium even Australia and the USA. Bernard Hinault seems to think that the best French riders are overpaid and unmotivated and he has been saying that for years. Where there is money and fame there is corruption no matter what it is but I believe that the corruption is worse in Spain, Italy and Germany re doping. I think that the results regarding who has been caught over the last 5 years speak for themselves especially regarding big name riders or elite riders. The former Telekom team (T-Mobile), when you look at the personnel who rode for that team at some point and subsequent events, seemed to use systematic doping. Various other teams looked very doubtful too like Gerolsteiner among others. Manzano spoke about systematic doping years ago but people in high places tended to laugh it off or say he was making it up.