Wiggins, a man in love!

[the big ring]

Probably being a bit slow here but what are you implying?

That it's dishonest to say Wiggins sustained 480W for 20-25 minutes. Spin. Upsell. PR. Fast and loose with the truth.

He barely made it past 19 minutes.

Vaughters is setting up the groundwork for a future performance. Smells bad to me.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

That it's dishonest to say Wiggins sustained 480W for 20-25 minutes. Spin. Upsell. PR. Fast and loose with the truth.

He barely made it past 19 minutes.

Vaughters is setting up the groundwork for a future performance. Smells bad to me.

How can you guarantee the accuracy of the TT figure? What calculation did they use?

 

[AcademyCC]

I'm sure most are aware of a program on british TV at the minute - British Cycling Road to Glory. It's a 5 part fly on the wall documentary about Team Sky's quest for the TDF. It focuses a lot of Braislford's marginal gains theory.

Throughout the show all the team staff and riders are talking up marginal gains and how it is combating the gain from PEDS.

Then Brad in his wisdom comes out with - yeah I was struggling in 2010, we decided to go to a training camp in Tenerife and boom I won the Dauphine - we've been going back ever since.

Simples

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

That it's dishonest to say Wiggins sustained 480W for 20-25 minutes. Spin. Upsell. PR. Fast and loose with the truth.

He barely made it past 19 minutes.

The original claim about Wiggins was: "He was doing 480 watts at 72 kilos for a 20-25 minute time".

The logical interpretation of this is that he was consistently able to average 480 watts over 20-25 minutes ie that this performance level was observed several times, not just in the TT in question. As an assumption, these performances would mainly be in test conditions, with consistent conditions, not in a windy TT.

Dishing out 476 watts for 19 minutes in a TT victory is hardly conclusive contradiction of the original claim, particularly when Wiggo went there to beat the Hutch, and did so comfortably, so wouldn't necessarily have been going full bore all the way.

The CdA used to derive 476 watts was a "wind-tunnel" figure, not necessarily what you'd get during a windy TT.

Nice try, though!

Besides, it's not Wiggo's one-off performances that are the real issue, it's the ability to repeat them day after day after day in a GT that is most questionable. Lots of riders have the same or very similar peak performance levels as top GT riders in short races. What separates the men from the boys in GTs is the ability to churn out high %ages of one-off performance levels for three weeks, which is something that scuppers many top riders over shorter races.

 

[the big ring]

How can you guarantee the accuracy of the TT figure? What calculation did they use?

I can't. It's from a post by a guy called Xavier Disley on the wattage forum. He was working with Wiggins / Sky at the time, so I am guessing he read it from an SRM power file and didn't calculate anything.

 

[the big ring]

The original claim about Wiggins was: "He was doing 480 watts at 72 kilos for a 20-25 minute time".

Yeah I know. I included that in my post.

The logical interpretation of this is that he was consistently able to average 480 watts over 20-25 minutes ie that this performance level was observed several times, not just in the TT in question. As an assumption, these performances would mainly be in test conditions, with consistent conditions, not in a windy TT.

No, that is not the case. Not a logical interpretation for me at any rate.

Dishing out 476 watts for 19 minutes in a TT victory is hardly conclusive contradiction of the original claim, particularly when Wiggo went there to beat the Hutch, and did so comfortably, so wouldn't necessarily have been going full bore all the way.

So he had a radio and time checks? He just cruised it after beating someone else to a time check or something?

The CdA used to derive 476 watts was a "wind-tunnel" figure, not necessarily what you'd get during a windy TT.

Nice try, though!

It wasn't derived.

Besides, it's not Wiggo's one-off performances that are the real issue,

Perhaps you missed my point? The real issue is JV spinning up the PR for a performance.

it's the ability to repeat them day after day after day in a GT that is most questionable. Lots of riders have the same or very similar peak performance levels as top GT riders in short races. What separates the men from the boys in GTs is the ability to churn out high %ages of one-off performance levels for three weeks, which is something that scuppers many top riders over shorter races.

And if Brad had ever showed any ability or progression in GTs prior to 2009, or between July 2009 and September 2011, I would not be questioning his complete dominance of 2012 now. As it is, there's nothing. Except some quick 4km efforts.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I can't. It's from a post by a guy called Xavier Disley on the wattage forum. He was working with Wiggins / Sky at the time, so I am guessing he read it from an SRM power file and didn't calculate anything.

Ah, interesting... I thought Sky were pretty secretive about that kind of stuff. Do you have a link? Be interesting to see what other stuff is on there.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

And if Brad had ever showed any ability or progression in GTs prior to 2009, or between July 2009 and September 2011, I would not be questioning his complete dominance of 2012 now. As it is, there's nothing. Except some quick 4km efforts.

There are doubtless plenty of performances from Wiggo that might rouse suspicion - I doubt a windy domestic "10" is going to be one of them!

 

[the big ring]

Before the Tour he was doing a couple of power tests just like Christian was the year before – uphill and in a 10 mile time trial that he did up in England, and I knew that the power to weight ratio was right at world class. He was doing 480 watts at 72 kilos for a 20-25 minute time, so I knew that Brad would be one of the most powerful riders in the Tour

I'll edit this post when I find JV's "Wiggins uphill power" post, but it wasn't 6.61 W/kg.

 

[the big ring]

There are doubtless plenty of performances from Wiggo that might rouse suspicion - I doubt a windy domestic "10" is going to be one of them!

Again. You are completely missing the point. I don't care if Wiggins did 480 for 19 minutes. JV is selling 480 for 25 minutes.

There's a post here somewhere I can't find right now. Pretty sure JV was touting 6.1W/kg for Brad at the time in the uphill "test". VdV was a bit under the weather and doing slightly less.

If Brad was doing 6.61W/kg uphill for 25 minutes, pretty sure JV would have mentioned that.

 

[the big ring]

Ah, interesting... I thought Sky were pretty secretive about that kind of stuff. Do you have a link? Be interesting to see what other stuff is on there.

It's a google group and I am loathe to copy a post in its entirety. You need to request read access, but they don't deny from what I can tell.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/wattage/IsBdRhgJHPY

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It's a google group and I am loathe to copy a post in its entirety. You need to request read access, but they don't deny from what I can tell.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/wattage/IsBdRhgJHPY

If its not public best not to copy and paste. Thanks.

 

[the big ring]

Found the climbing post:

Ok, so answer the 20 min effort vs 40+ minute effort question, I only have limited information from elite athletes, so this isn't a University study....

That said: CVV can produce about 5.9 watts per kg in peak form for 40+ minute climbs, Wiggo is a bit more at 6.1 w/kg for this length of effort.
From the pre-Tour tests both riders have done up Rocacorba (a 33 minute climb) I know that Wiggo was at 6.1w/kg and CVV was 5.7 w/kg (He was off form a bit in June). However, Wiggo did a local 10 mile TT in GB about 2 weeks before the Tour, or 5 days before the Rocacorba test. He posted a time of 18mins flat (and was disqualified for using a 1080 wheel...funny rules over there). Anyhow, his power was 482 watts, so using his Tour weight of 72 kgs, so 6.7 w/kg. So, anecdotally, there's about a 9% decrease in power when going from a 20 min effort to a 40+ min effort. At 6.7 w/kg you certainly can climb at a VAM of 1750, but at 6.1 you wont even hit 1700 (again, anecdotal based on experience).
The last TT in the Tour Wiggo averaged 434 watts, consistent with his previous tests of 40+ minutes and just about 6.1 w/kg. I dont have any data for Wiggo up climbs in the Tour, as he didnt use a PowerTap.

JV

It looks like it was another 10miler - and Wiggins averaged 482 for 18 minutes.

So the actual TT efforts we have are 476W for 19-14 and 482 for 18 flat. It is PR spin to say Brad was doing 480W for 20-25 minutes.

You can tell me that this is not a flat out effort but you are never going to convince me.

The efforts (climb + TT) which were 30+ minutes were flat lining at 6.1W/kg

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

So he had a radio and time checks? He just cruised it after beating someone else to a time check or something?

It's hardly rocket science to get timechecks on a TT course.

The course in question is an "out and back" one, so at the very least, Wiggo could time his own gap on other riders in and out of the turn. This technology could also be supplemented with a couple of strategic "spotters" equipped with watches and mobile phones, along with someone who can shout "You're 30 seconds up, Brad" loudly as Wiggo went past. I think the Sky infrastrucure could stretch to that, somehow!

I genuinely think you're reading too much into this single TT performance!

 

[the big ring]

3. Mostly as an aside: given Wiggins' success as a pursuiter, I'd expect that his power falls off a bit more when going from 20 to 40+ min than most. (But then again, the point-of-reference here is Contador, who is known to be a more "explosive" climber than, say, Evans, so a ~10% difference may still be quite reasonable.)

Just putting some posts in there that relate.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Again. You are completely missing the point. I don't care if Wiggins did 480 for 19 minutes. JV is selling 480 for 25 minutes.

You have to care about the 480 watts for 19 minutes performance. Otherwise you've got nothing to contradict the 480 watts for 25 minutes claim.

 

[the big ring]

It's hardly rocket science to get timechecks on a TT course.

The course in question is an "out and back" one, so at the very least, Wiggo could time his own gap on other riders in and out of the turn. This technology could also be supplemented with a couple of strategic "spotters" equipped with watches and mobile phones, along with someone who can shout "You're 30 seconds up, Brad" loudly as Wiggo went past. I think the Sky infrastrucure could stretch to that, somehow!

I genuinely think you're reading too much into this single TT performance!

I genuinely wish you would read my posts. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE.

Man alive. I've said it twice now. I'm not reading ANYTHING into this performance.

I care about the lack of honesty in Vaughter's claim.

Nice fantasy you got going there that Brad had spotters on the course and once he knew he'd beaten someone else's time he just soft pedaled to the finish.

 

[the big ring]

It's hardly rocket science to get timechecks on a TT course.

The course in question is an "out and back" one, so at the very least, Wiggo could time his own gap on other riders in and out of the turn. This technology could also be supplemented with a couple of strategic "spotters" equipped with watches and mobile phones, along with someone who can shout "You're 30 seconds up, Brad" loudly as Wiggo went past. I think the Sky infrastrucure could stretch to that, somehow!

I genuinely think you're reading too much into this single TT performance!

The TT was in England. He was riding for Garmin. Man you're really clutching wildly here. Give it up bro.

I'll pay you $100 if you can hear what someone standing on the side of the road is saying as you ride past at 50km/hr. That's 13.8m/s + 50km/hr wind noise. And then tell me Brad soft pedaled coz he knew he'd beaten the other rider.

Ever done a test before? You see what you can do, not who you can beat.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Man alive. I've said it twice now. I'm not reading ANYTHING into this performance.

I care about the lack of honesty in Vaughter's claim.

You may have to say it a third time, but how have you concluded that there is an honesty deficiency in JV's claim?

 

[the big ring]

You may have to say it a third time, but how have you concluded that there is an honesty deficiency in JV's claim?

Go back upthread. Read the tests JV mentioned. Now show me one where Wiggins did 480W for 25 minutes.

Hint: you won't be able to!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The TT was in England. He was riding for Garmin. Man you're really clutching wildly here. Give it up bro.

I'll pay you $100 if you can hear what someone standing on the side of the road is saying as you ride past at 50km/hr. That's 13.8m/s + 50km/hr wind noise. And then tell me Brad soft pedaled coz he knew he'd beaten the other rider.

Ever done a test before? You see what you can do, not who you can beat.

Your post to which I responded included reference to the 2011 British "10", when Wiggo was obviously at Sky.

The Cycling Weekly link you provided contains the 476 watts in just over 19 minutes claim in this 2011 race.

For info, Wiggo only really does UK TTs to race the Hutch. He has a long-standing, friendly rivalry with him.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Go back upthread. Read the tests JV mentioned. Now show me one where Wiggins did 480W for 25 minutes.

Hint: you won't be able to!

That's a different matter. I only read your post when you trashed the "480 watts for 20-25 minutes" claim and made reference to the specific 2011 "10" performance. If you say that the other tests don't support the "480 watts for 20-25 minutes" claim then that's fine by me. I'm not actually bothered - I'm a paid up member of the Wiggo fanclub and just want him to dish it out to the Johnny Foreigners.

Referring to a 2011 event in the context of a claim made by JV about Wiggo, which must relate to no later than 2009 is rather confusing, it must be said!

 

[the big ring]

That's a different matter. I only read your post when you trashed the "480 watts for 20-25 minutes" claim and made reference to the specific 2011 "10" performance. If you say that the other tests don't support the "480 watts for 20-25 minutes" claim then that's fine by me. I'm not actually bothered - I'm a paid up member of the Wiggo fanclub and just want him to dish it out to the Johnny Foreigners.

Referring to a 2011 event in the context of a claim made by JV about Wiggo, which must relate to no later than 2009 is rather confusing, it must be said!

I'm sorry you believe in unicorns.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I'm sorry you believe in unicorns.

I don't, as it happens. I'm very cynical about matters relating to pro cycling, so watch it knowing what's most likely happening in the background. Someone's got to win, and I want it to be Wiggo.

 

[Bumeington]

I can't. It's from a post by a guy called Xavier Disley on the wattage forum. He was working with Wiggins / Sky at the time, so I am guessing he read it from an SRM power file and didn't calculate anything.

Wiggins showed his SRM to everyone at the hq for the TT, that's were the 476W comes from. Also, Vaughters claimed 482W for an 18:00 10 mile in the build up to the tour.