Wiggins, a man in love!

[TechnicalDescent]

C*** is more like it. I wonder who Wiggo's OB/GYN man is.

Why would Wiggins be the target of abuse for saying this? It was a fairly logical and reasonable thing for him to say at the time. I know Landis has been cannoned a saint for starting the ball rolling on stopping Armstrong's success, but there is nothing Wiggins says about Landis that is inaccurate and well documented. Doesn't make him evil, just as Armstrong is not evil, but it's true nonetheless.

Landis also led a campaign smearing Wiggins as a doper, even branding Garmin as postal mark 2. Why in the world would Wiggins suddenly pretend Landis has done a great service to cycling for making these allegations shortly after his long four year legal battle to save his own win came to an end?

Now, it's true new information has emerged since over Armstrong and doping on his comeback, so I don't think Wiggins would have much to say about either Landis or Armstrong these days. Perhaps he will continue to remind us that Armstrong has, overall, been a huge positive for the sport despite all this. I don't know. But you can't fault him for being extremely cautious about Landis, having been one of his victims.

 

[thehog]

There is a generation gap developing in cycling between the old guys like him, for whom doping is embedded normality, and the young ones. One of the Française des Jeux riders, Michael Delage, was outspoken about drugs on the television one night during the race and Moreni really took off - "Who is he to tell me what to do?" Delage attacked that day and Moreni went after him, caught him and insulted him.

That was what the Tour turned into for me. People denying things, people arguing. The day of the protest at the start in Orthez - Wednesday, the day Moreni was revealed to be positive - I decided not to wait on the line because I don't want to be dictated to. People know where I stand. I was in 100 per cent agreement with them, but I have friends in other teams who aren't French and are clean. I didn't want to watch them ride off and be saying, in effect, that they were on drugs because they weren't with us.

I went through the start line with the peloton and, when I caught up, everyone was laughing, patting me on the back and saying well done for coming with us. I heard some awful things at that point, which made me very depressed - the worst was one rider who joked that he didn't understand the French, that if they took drugs they would go faster and why didn't they try it?

I was just mad and thought, 'Sod this'. It wasn't nice to be part of. It was like the Festina scandal in 1998, not how the Tour is supposed to be. We had conquered the Alps and the Pyrenees, I was going to have a go on the Champs-Elysees, my wife, Cath, was coming out to celebrate what was going to be a great Tour for me and it was all over in 24 hours.

I'd like to come back to the Tour, though. I don't see why guys like me should suffer because of a minority. There are riders like Geraint Thomas, who are the future, riders like the ones at Française des Jeux who are coming through, and there are guys like David Millar, who is a real ambassador for anti-doping. Things will get better. The people who are still doping are mainly the older generation and the riders who hang around with them. The sooner they are gone the better.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jul/29/cycling.tourdefrance1

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Thanks, TheHog. I believe the reaction to his own success made him much more cautious. That is logical. People did get a little crazy. Also having the opportunity to ride with Armstrong in 2009 had an effect on him. He seemed really star struck and talked about the aura of the man. It's one thing to shoot from the hip from the outside, but when you're up close fighting it out on the climbs, seeing the hard work that is put it, you become much more respectful of what it all means.

 

[Maxiton]

Why would Wiggins be the target of abuse for saying this? It was a fairly logical and reasonable thing for him to say at the time. I know Landis has been cannoned a saint for starting the ball rolling on stopping Armstrong's success, but there is nothing Wiggins says about Landis that is inaccurate and well documented. Doesn't make him evil, just as Armstrong is not evil, but it's true nonetheless.

Landis also led a campaign smearing Wiggins as a doper, even branding Garmin as postal mark 2. Why in the world would Wiggins suddenly pretend Landis has done a great service to cycling for making these allegations shortly after his long four year legal battle to save his own win came to an end?

Now, it's true new information has emerged since over Armstrong and doping on his comeback, so I don't think Wiggins would have much to say about either Landis or Armstrong these days. Perhaps he will continue to remind us that Armstrong has, overall, been a huge positive for the sport despite all this. I don't know. But you can't fault him for being extremely cautious about Landis, having been one of his victims.

I wasn't even thinking about Landis. I was thinking about the hypocrisy evident in Wiggo's statements when you compare them to statements he made a few years ago. And, his sympathy for and admiration of LA coincides with his now becoming number 1 or 2 contender for the maillot jaune. If he hadn't made such a point of slagging dopers and acting all high and mighty about it, I wouldn't really have a problem with him now.

Frankly, I'm not really all that bent out of shape about LA when it comes down to it. I don't like bullies, just as I don't like hypocrites, and I hate to see this beautiful sport made a mockery of. But there are far worse things in the world to worry about. It is fun, though, to talk about which rider is seeing which gynecologist. If the sport was clean, we couldn't do that.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

I wasn't even thinking about Landis. I was thinking about the hypocrisy evident in Wiggo's statements when you compare them to statements he made a few years ago. And, his sympathy for and admiration of LA coincides with his now becoming number 1 or 2 contender for the maillot jaune. If he hadn't made such a point of slagging dopers and acting all high and mighty about it, I wouldn't really have a problem with him now.

Frankly, I'm not really all that bent out of shape about LA when it comes down to it. I don't like bullies, just as I don't like hypocrites, and I hate to see this beautiful sport made a mockery of. But there are far worse things in the world to worry about. It is fun, though, to talk about which rider is seeing which gynecologist. If the sport was clean, we couldn't do that.

Agreed, I really hate that too. I see a lot of it on all sides. It must be remembered that Armstrong himself has faced an incredible amount of harrassment. As an example, the guy has to wade through hundreds of bullying tweets every day, and Landis admitted to Outside magazine to be waging a coordinate campaign. This is seen as okay because the people who do it believe they're on the "right" side. One man's bully is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[Maxiton]

Agreed, I really hate that too. I see a lot of it on all sides. It must be remembered that Armstrong himself has faced an incredible amount of harrassment. As an example, the guy has to wade through hundreds of bullying tweets every day

Man, that sounds rough.

and Landis admitted to Outside magazine to be waging a coordinate campaign. This is seen as okay because the people who do it believe they're on the "right" side. One man's bully is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[Benotti69]

................ Armstrong.........., the guy makes thousands of bullying tweets every day, .............................................................................

Reality check!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Race Radio]

Why would Wiggins be the target of abuse for saying this? It was a fairly logical and reasonable thing for him to say at the time. I know Landis has been cannoned a saint for starting the ball rolling on stopping Armstrong's success, but there is nothing Wiggins says about Landis that is inaccurate and well documented. Doesn't make him evil, just as Armstrong is not evil, but it's true nonetheless.

Landis also led a campaign smearing Wiggins as a doper, even branding Garmin as postal mark 2. Why in the world would Wiggins suddenly pretend Landis has done a great service to cycling for making these allegations shortly after his long four year legal battle to save his own win came to an end?

Now, it's true new information has emerged since over Armstrong and doping on his comeback, so I don't think Wiggins would have much to say about either Landis or Armstrong these days. Perhaps he will continue to remind us that Armstrong has, overall, been a huge positive for the sport despite all this. I don't know. But you can't fault him for being extremely cautious about Landis, having been one of his victims.

Wiggins rode for JV, he knows well what a toxic element Armstrong is. Praising him is absurd.

Landis lead a campaign saying Wiggins is a doper? Got a link or did you make that up?

 

[Race Radio]

Agreed, I really hate that too. I see a lot of it on all sides. It must be remembered that Armstrong himself has faced an incredible amount of harrassment. As an example, the guy has to wade through hundreds of bullying tweets every day, and Landis admitted to Outside magazine to be waging a coordinate campaign. This is seen as okay because the people who do it believe they're on the "right" side. One man's bully is another man's freedom fighter.

Let me see if I have this correct. Armstrong finances an organized media campaign, employing media specialist that costs thousands of $$$$ a month. One of their key focuses is smearing Floyd. Labeling him as a bitter, alcoholic with mental problems......But Floyd is the bad guy because he gave his Twitter password to a few of people who like to say bad words? Really?

Sounds like the kind of absurd rationalization BPC would invent

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Wiggins rode for JV, he knows well what a toxic element Armstrong is. Praising him is absurd.

There are plenty of people that have ridden for Garmin who admire Lance Armstrong. David Millar is business partner of Vaughters and until recently, at least, was his friend and welcomed his return to the sport. So is Thor Hushovd. There are many former team mates who like him, such as bike pure advocate Brian Smith. At the time it was perfectly reasonable for Wiggins to praise him for the good his success had done to the sport world wide. At the time there were a lot of former critics who decided to draw a line and look at the big picture. Even President Sarkozy joined in.

To be honest, I don't think even Jonathan Vaughters lays awake at night hoping Armstrong goes down. Not everybody has to collapse into personal bitterness who has different ideas of how the sport should be run.

Landis lead a campaign saying Wiggins is a doper? Got a link or did you make that up?

I don't blame you for asking that, it's not the type of thing you're going to read on cycling news or any other big site. But his repeated remarks on Wiggins on his various twitter accounts are well known to people who closely follow the sport. To be fair he has backed off for awhile now since someone directly confronted him about it.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Let me see if I have this correct. Armstrong finances an organized media campaign, employing media specialist that costs thousands of $$$$ a month. One of their key focuses is smearing Floyd. Labeling him as a bitter, alcoholic with mental problems......But Floyd is the bad guy because he gave his Twitter password to a few of people who like to say bad words? Really?

Actually the rumors and smears about Floyd came from the period before he came out against Armstrong, from the same people who then became his biggest backers. Got any ideas who they maybe? But yes, the Armstrong camp built on those as a defensive act.

It's easy to label abuse and harrassment as just words. We could writeoff all of Armstrong's encounters with people as just a few bad words. It wouldn't be honest though.

 

[oldcrank]

According to "Clinic" logic, Taylor Phinney is on the
program. In a cyclingnews.com video interview he
says he admires Wiggo, is inspired by Wiggo and
secretly hopes Wiggo does well, so that would
mean Taylor Phinney is part of the problem and
not part of the solution that the new generation
is hopefully going to be. Or did the "Clinic" experts
already assume Phinney is dirty because he rides
on Cadel Evans team and rode for the Livestrong
development team in the past? Or does everbody
know he is a doper after his TT win in the Giro?

 

[hrotha]

According to "Clinic" logic, Taylor Phinney is on the
program. In a cyclingnews.com video interview he
says he admires Wiggo, is inspired by Wiggo and
secretly hopes Wiggo does well, so that would
mean Taylor Phinney is part of the problem and
not part of the solution that the new generation
is hopefully going to be. Or did the "Clinic" experts
already assume Phinney is dirty because he rides
on Cadel Evans team and rode for the Livestrong
development team in the past? Or does everbody
know he is a doper after his TT win in the Giro?

Wiggo doesn't even begin to compare to Armstrong. There's zero doubts about what Armstrong has done. Wiggo is a suspect mostly because this is cycling, but there's very little solid evidence against him, it's mostly extrapolation and interpretation of subjective data.

Armstrong is not just a doper - he represents the worst era of doping in cycling.

If Phinney keeps looking up to Wiggins after his being a doper is revealed, then we'll talk.

 

[Race Radio]

There are plenty of people that have ridden for Garmin who admire Lance Armstrong. David Millar is business partner of Vaughters and until recently, at least, was his friend and welcomed his return to the sport. So is Thor Hushovd. There are many former team mates who like him, such as bike pure advocate Brian Smith. At the time it was perfectly reasonable for Wiggins to praise him for the good his success had done to the sport world wide. At the time there were a lot of former critics who decided to draw a line and look at the big picture. Even President Sarkozy joined in.

To be honest, I don't think even Jonathan Vaughters lays awake at night hoping Armstrong goes down. Not everybody has to collapse into personal bitterness who has different ideas of how the sport should be run.



I don't blame you for asking that, it's not the type of thing you're going to read on cycling news or any other big site. But his repeated remarks on Wiggins on his various twitter accounts are well known to people who closely follow the sport. To be fair he has backed off for awhile now since someone directly confronted him about it.

If there are so many why can you only name one?

JV has been enjoying Armstrong's collapse as much as Betsy has. His team, riders, and staff are a key part of the case. Armstrong is toxic, the sport knows it and the groupies ignore it for as long as possible

 

[Race Radio]

Actually the rumors and smears about Floyd came from the period before he came out against Armstrong, from the same people who then became his biggest backers. Got any ideas who they maybe? But yes, the Armstrong camp built on those as a defensive act.

It's easy to label abuse and harrassment as just words. We could writeoff all of Armstrong's encounters with people as just a few bad words. It wouldn't be honest though.

ridiculous.

Armstrong launched a media campaign against Floyd that spanned the media landscape, not a few online forums

It wouldn't be honest for you to pretend otherwise.....but honesty has never been a BPC specialty

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

If there are so many why can you only name one?

JV has been enjoying Armstrong's collapse as much as Betsy has. His team, riders, and staff are a key part of the case. Armstrong is toxic, the sport knows it and the groupies ignore it for as long as possible

Please tell JV to stop insulting our intelligence.

“As a whole the race is clean,” said Vaughters, who rode with Armstrong on the U.S. Postal Team in 1998 and 1999 before retiring in 2003. “I can’t speak to every single athlete, but the probability of the Tour being won by a clean rider is much higher than it being won by a doped rider.”

http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.html

"But this year [2005!] was probably the cleanest Tour since the early '90s. It (doping) has decreased enormously since the '95-'96 period." Now, Vaughters estimated about "80-85 percent" of the field is clean.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

Rinse & repeat.

 

[Benotti69]

Please tell JV to stop insulting our intelligence.

http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.html

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

Rinse & repeat.

Which shows how much JV really speaks out of his proverbial argyle.

 

[Race Radio]

Please tell JV to stop insulting our intelligence.



http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.html



http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

Rinse & repeat.

I agree a lot of what he says about 2012....but 2005 no way. Was he drunk?

 

[hrotha]

I agree a lot of what he says about 2012....but 2005 no way. Was he drunk?

He hadn't fully broken off from the omertà mode. The question is, has he now?

 

[veganrob]

He hadn't fully broken off from the omertà mode. The question is, has he now?

Agree with you.

Time will tell on JV. He seemed to be towing the omerta line still back then. Maybe he had a dream of a clean peloton and being part of the solution. I hope he will front that. I'm ok with that. Kind of
The riders like Simeoni and Bassons I feel bad for and have the most respect for keeping their values. Sadly there is really no vindication for them. Watching LA fall is the best that can happen for all. And cycling will be much better off and start a new better era once he is gone.

Time will certainly tell

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I agree a lot of what he says about 2012....but 2005 no way. Was he drunk?

I don't have a problem with the "it's getting cleaner" mantra today. The evidence suggests the sport has gotten cleaner. But to claim that "as a whole the race is clean” and "the probability of the Tour being won by a clean rider is much higher than it being won by a doped rider” is surely nonsense and I think he knows it.

He hadn't fully broken off from the omertà mode. The question is, has he now?

He's never said anything that can be construed as "breaking the omerta", except generalizations about the past. He's never accused any rider, team, doctor or DS. He's never said doping is currently prevalent in the pro peloton. He's always painted a too positive image of the current situation in pro cycling. He's never ruffled any feathers publically.

I understand why, but regardless of whether JV is legitimatley anti-doping or not, it's clear that anything he tells the public needs to be taken with a truck load of salt.

 

[Race Radio]

Even Eurosport tries to ignore Lance. When Carlton slipped and mentioned Lance's Skinsuit Harmon said "That's it, now you have gone and mentioned that name" Carlton's response was to dismissively call Lance "That cloud"

The sport has moved on. Most see that distancing themselves from the toxic element that is Lance is a smart thing.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

If there are so many why can you only name one?

JV has been enjoying Armstrong's collapse as much as Betsy has. His team, riders, and staff are a key part of the case. Armstrong is toxic, the sport knows it and the groupies ignore it for as long as possible

I named two who had worked with JV closely who are friends of Lance Armstrong. You said those who rode for JV habe to believe Lance Armstrong is toxit. This is patently not the case.

I very much doubt JV is enjoying this as much as Betsy. Remember, he didn't want this investigation and is very much from the school of leading by example and moving on. Notable that he disappeared from here the moment the charges came out.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

ridiculous.

Armstrong launched a media campaign against Floyd that spanned the media landscape, not a few online forums

Actually I didn't see anything from Armstrong's people wasn't common knowledge throughout cycling and that that didn't come directly from the people who are Armstrong's biggest critics. The only people that changed were the people that started the rumors in the first place.

 

[thehog]

I named two who had worked with JV closely who are friends of Lance Armstrong. You said those who rode for JV habe to believe Lance Armstrong is toxit. This is patently not the case.

I very much doubt JV is enjoying this as much as Betsy. Remember, he didn't want this investigation and is very much from the school of leading by example and moving on. Notable that he disappeared from here the moment the charges came out.

what's toxit?