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Wiggins, Clinic respect?

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Dec 13, 2012
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Franklin said:
I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.



(thankfully!) not evidence.



A definite black eye for the team and DB, but no evidence that he injected BW.



Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.



There were marked differences though. But I guess his values of 2009 are the closest we get to "evidence".



Yeah you could. And I certainly agree it ain't over and that these questions need to be asked.

But if we look at TdF winners Wiggins seems to have remarkably little against him. I can think of several levels more trouble for Evans.

Wiggins is the first one I really don't know. And that's the first time in a long long time. And that itself gives me enough reason to pause and ask the neccesary questions;)
Regarding Armstrong 2009 Tour, the reasoned decision indicates that there is a 1 in 1 million chance that he did NOT dope.
 
May 18, 2011
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I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?

*Apologies if discusssed already*
 
May 26, 2009
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jamiephillips said:
I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?

*Apologies if discusssed already*
Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.

1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.

If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).

If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.

Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation. ;)
 
Mar 6, 2009
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Joachim said:
I'm afraid I don't attach much importance to the shrill rantings of a handful of loons on the Internet.

The desperate genuflexions that have taken place to try and conjure something out of nothing have been hilarious to behold. Claims such as 'Wiggins has come out of nowhere', 'Sky tactics look like USPS', etc.Then you've got the risible attempts from halfwits to try and bend data that they clearly don't understand (notice how that one has died a death).

No. The world isn't listening to you guys. Sorry.

(No offence intended towards you, Franklin)
But the problem is this. Right now there is as much evidence against SKY and Wiggins as there was against Armstrong and US Postal back in 99.

Sudden transformation to GC rider. Check
Team riding super well. Check
Ranting against those who raised questions. Check
Some very dodgy PR claims. Check
Having loads of fan's who are new to the sport. Check

The one thing Armstrong had against him was the cortisone positive but there were no connection's with dodgy doctor's like SKY have. Please remember I am talking about Postal 99 here.

We have seen how the Armstrong situation played out so I think a lot of people are not willing to give false PR statement's and wishy washy comment's on doping and dopers any more shrift than they have to. It's just a case of people not wanting to be strung along again.

SKY have made the grand claim's to being clean so in the current environment they need to be able to back up their grand claim's and right now they seem to be failing. Hence the level of doubt.

I don't think I have once insinuated either SKY or Wiggins are dirty(though Froome does bother me)but their lack of a clear message leave's me with severe doubt's.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Joachim said:
Wiggins outburst was directed at a journalist asking him about anonymous accusations on Twitter.

Kimmage picked up on the Leinders thing, quite rightly, in my view. He seems to have gone a bit quiet about it now. It's a bit of a one-trick pony if there is nothing else to go on. Even Kimmage was incredibly guarded about how he voiced his interest in Leinders.
Well you may call it "one trick pony" but some may think it was a pretty "good" trick.. especially when all you heard from Sky was "zero tolerance" and we are "new" and doing it "clean" ETC ETC ETC... this you already know.
 
Dec 22, 2012
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pmcg76 said:
Sudden transformation to GC rider. Check
Team riding super well. Check
Ranting against those who raised questions. Check
Some very dodgy PR claims. Check
Having loads of fan's who are new to the sport. Check
With the greatest of respect to you, I don't think any of those hold any water whatsoever. They may be your perceptions, Sky may later prove to be the biggest dope fiends the world has ever seen, but those two things are unrelated.

There are plenty of examples of non-GC riders who have turned to dope and have turned into... err...non-GC riders.

The one thing Armstrong had against him was the cortisone positive but there were no connection's with dodgy doctor's like SKY have. Please remember I am talking about Postal 99 here.
The one thing? That one thing is pretty bloody enormous...it's a positive dope test!!!!!

SKY have made the grand claim's to being clean so in the current environment they need to be able to back up their grand claim's and right now they seem to be failing. Hence the level of doubt.
.
Do you not see that they set themselves up for failure? As would any team that had said the same. To avoid criticism, all they needed to do was keep silent. Omertà. Do you approve of omertà?
 
Franklin said:
As one of the big contributors there I want to point out that this sheer and utter nonsense and twisting of truth.

Somehow a well laid out and argued critcism of Nicole Cooke's statement is somehow savaging her? While she was doing a complete blanket attack without evidence or offering a solution you would expect people critical of "the Ayslum" to take a stand.

Yet, somehow that is fine.

Now even Mellow Velo had to say he fully understood my reasoning and position.

And this is what is so bloody amazing. You present facts and explain why there are doubts. And yet there is a constant sniping and belittling, poohpoohing and handwaving. When confronted there comes out "yeah, that's true, it's a bit odd/conflicting" and then it starts all over again.

The tolerance for lying and hypocrisie is amazing.

Wiggins did not say he respected Lance. He LOVED him. He went on extolling how much Lance had done for the sport. It wasn't just once, he was very clearly a supporter of Lance. That's so far beyond a neutral or tactful stance that this isn't even worth a discussion.

Now if we look at Sastre, AC, Cadel they haven't been nearly as glowing beyond "we respect his career". It's clear that a TdF is nowhere near forced to say "I love Lance". This was Wiggins own choice.

Questioning this is not fanatical, it's beyond crazy that anyone who wants a cleaned up sport finds this acceptable.

Above does not proof either way Wiggins is Doping. But it does show that pre-2009 he was one of those who clearly fought doping. And after 2009 somehow it was opportune to go with the gravy train.

Anyone defending this clearly is okay with Omerta, Hypocrisie and lying, just as long as it's for their idol.

Somehow it makes me wonder who are the fanatics.
Great post.
 
May 18, 2011
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Franklin said:
Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.

1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.

If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).

If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.

Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation. ;)
It's not really a theory, just my initial thought on reading that tweet.
If anything with all the Leinders revelations I have lately been convinced that Wiggins is a doper. It's possible though that not being the brightest spark, the attention of *then* 7 time tour winner Lance Armstrong was probably very seductive?
 
Mar 6, 2009
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Joachim said:
With the greatest of respect to you, I don't think any of those hold any water whatsoever. They may be your perceptions, Sky may later prove to be the biggest dope fiends the world has ever seen, but those two things are unrelated.

There are plenty of examples of non-GC riders who have turned to dope and have turned into... err...non-GC riders.



The one thing? That one thing is pretty bloody enormous...it's a positive dope test!!!!!



Do you not see that they set themselves up for failure? As would any team that had said the same. To avoid criticism, all they needed to do was keep silent. Omertà. Do you approve of omertà?
No that is exactly the situation, like it or not.

Wiggins transformation is bigger than Armstrong. Fact
Replace Armstrong's rant against Basson's v Wiggins rant against Kimmage/twitter.
Armstrong's 'I or my team have never witnessed doping' is akin to SKYs, 'we have no connection with dopers'.
SKY team more dominant at the Tour than Postal at their best. Fact.

The positive test was technically a nothing as the cortisone level was below the level for a positive and Armstrong had a TUE for it anyway. At the time it was no more incriminating than having a doping doctor on your books. A story dug up by a journalist(just like Kimmage)raising doubts.

SKY set themselves up to look dodgy and now that people are asking questions, they are acting all offended and just like Postal have their fanboys jumping through hoops to defend them.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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So anyone care to theorise as to why stefano Ferrari had wiggins SRM data in 2009 when wiggins & Armstrong were BFFs?
 
May 18, 2011
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Yeah Lance probably dropped a line about needing a doctor that was good with saddle sores and Wiggins completely missed the irony! :D
 
May 26, 2010
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Joachim said:
With the greatest of respect to you, I don't think any of those hold any water whatsoever. They may be your perceptions, Sky may later prove to be the biggest dope fiends the world has ever seen, but those two things are unrelated.

There are plenty of examples of non-GC riders who have turned to dope and have turned into... err...non-GC riders.



The one thing? That one thing is pretty bloody enormous...it's a positive dope test!!!!!


Do you not see that they set themselves up for failure? As would any team that had said the same. To avoid criticism, all they needed to do was keep silent. Omertà. Do you approve of omertà?
That really caught out Marion Jones, Virenque, Basso, Ullrich, etc etc

Sky set themselves up as idiots.
 
Oct 15, 2012
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Franklin said:
Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.

1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.

If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).

If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.

Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation. ;)
I'm not sure how this feeds in, but it seems, reading some of Wiggins scribblings on LA that it wasn't the 95-2005 doping that REALLY offended him - he seemed to accept 'they were all at it' and given what JVaughters said there can be no doubt wiggins knew Arsmtrong's dark past. From the reading ("if he was doping in 2009 he can f*** off"), it's the comeback doping that he rails against (like he broke 'the truce').

but we have seen the b*llsh*t armstrong spun on Oprah about the 'blood passport' making him come back clean (irony of ironies, his blood DID ring alarm bells) -

Would wiggins have been daft enough to believe that if Armstrong told him that? I can imagine Armstrong being that manipulative ("don't listen to Johnnie v, he's bitter, those were the old days, etc, etc) - I just can't imagine Wiggins being so stupid as to believe him if he did....
 
mastersracer said:
fine, but, then, the whole sport is suspicious. Indeed, all of sports is suspicious, from ping pong to football. But why all the focus here on Sky?

And not a mention that Tuft has found his old form (for example).

No one thinks sky are the only team doping. If there is any special focus on them though its because they are the ones to quote wiggins "shouting from the rooftops" that they are clean. While offering absolutely nothing more than all the other suspicious teams who are not shouting from the rooftops.
 
Franklin said:
This is partially caused by the Lance-UCI shehanigans. In fact last week Sky had dropped from the first page of the Clinic. And now that Leinders popped up in the Rabo scandal and Wiggins made a statement it's hot again. FOTM.

There are threads on Gilbert (Ibarguen!), Landis, AC etc.

But let's look at Evans; why is there less about him? quite simple because he doesn't fuel the fires as Wiggins did. Wiggins threw the gauntlet and that triggered this poo-storm.

If you act holier than holy, it's only natural if people compare your words with facts. Especially DB really comes out bad in that light. And that is another thing, BC, SKY, Wiggo, DB they are identified as one... and that is certainly partly their own doing.

If Wiggo is the face of clean cycling I certainly take issue with his words and with Sky as a team. For me there are too many questions. And handwaving by either Sky or the fans... well that evokes a reaction.
There was actually a lot of Evans talk last year. Not as much as sky but a lot. Difference is even the most loyal Evans fans including acf aknowledge Evans might dope and the more moderate ones assert that he probably is.

With wiggins the moderate fans acknowledge he might dope and the loyal ones see it as a sign of mental insanity to question if he won clean.
 
jamiephillips said:
I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?

*Apologies if discusssed already*
Vaughters was saying the same thing. Why would wiggins choose lance (who he knew doped ) over vaughters ( who he thought was leading a clean team)
 
JRanton said:
Those comments by Wiggins about Landis back in 2010 are absolutely disgusting given that he knew at the time that Landis was telling the truth.

How on earth can anyone defend that?
That's a great point. Stepping away from whether or not there is doping if wiggins did know landis was telling the truth, as his most "up to date" position claims ( the only one we are supposed to.consider)then that is morally repugnant behaviour of the sort that most people aren't even capable of.
 

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