Benotti69 said:The clinic is a forum.
100% agreed !
And you probably know my stance on Leinders
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Benotti69 said:The clinic is a forum.
Franklin said:100% agreed !
And you probably know my stance on Leinders
Franklin said:I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.
(thankfully!) not evidence.
A definite black eye for the team and DB, but no evidence that he injected BW.
Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.
There were marked differences though. But I guess his values of 2009 are the closest we get to "evidence".
Yeah you could. And I certainly agree it ain't over and that these questions need to be asked.
But if we look at TdF winners Wiggins seems to have remarkably little against him. I can think of several levels more trouble for Evans.
Wiggins is the first one I really don't know. And that's the first time in a long long time. And that itself gives me enough reason to pause and ask the neccesary questions
jamiephillips said:I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?
*Apologies if discusssed already*
Joachim said:I'm afraid I don't attach much importance to the shrill rantings of a handful of loons on the Internet.
The desperate genuflexions that have taken place to try and conjure something out of nothing have been hilarious to behold. Claims such as 'Wiggins has come out of nowhere', 'Sky tactics look like USPS', etc.Then you've got the risible attempts from halfwits to try and bend data that they clearly don't understand (notice how that one has died a death).
No. The world isn't listening to you guys. Sorry.
(No offence intended towards you, Franklin)
Joachim said:Wiggins outburst was directed at a journalist asking him about anonymous accusations on Twitter.
Kimmage picked up on the Leinders thing, quite rightly, in my view. He seems to have gone a bit quiet about it now. It's a bit of a one-trick pony if there is nothing else to go on. Even Kimmage was incredibly guarded about how he voiced his interest in Leinders.
pmcg76 said:Sudden transformation to GC rider. Check
Team riding super well. Check
Ranting against those who raised questions. Check
Some very dodgy PR claims. Check
Having loads of fan's who are new to the sport. Check
The one thing Armstrong had against him was the cortisone positive but there were no connection's with dodgy doctor's like SKY have. Please remember I am talking about Postal 99 here.
SKY have made the grand claim's to being clean so in the current environment they need to be able to back up their grand claim's and right now they seem to be failing. Hence the level of doubt.
.
Franklin said:As one of the big contributors there I want to point out that this sheer and utter nonsense and twisting of truth.
Somehow a well laid out and argued critcism of Nicole Cooke's statement is somehow savaging her? While she was doing a complete blanket attack without evidence or offering a solution you would expect people critical of "the Ayslum" to take a stand.
Yet, somehow that is fine.
Now even Mellow Velo had to say he fully understood my reasoning and position.
And this is what is so bloody amazing. You present facts and explain why there are doubts. And yet there is a constant sniping and belittling, poohpoohing and handwaving. When confronted there comes out "yeah, that's true, it's a bit odd/conflicting" and then it starts all over again.
The tolerance for lying and hypocrisie is amazing.
Wiggins did not say he respected Lance. He LOVED him. He went on extolling how much Lance had done for the sport. It wasn't just once, he was very clearly a supporter of Lance. That's so far beyond a neutral or tactful stance that this isn't even worth a discussion.
Now if we look at Sastre, AC, Cadel they haven't been nearly as glowing beyond "we respect his career". It's clear that a TdF is nowhere near forced to say "I love Lance". This was Wiggins own choice.
Questioning this is not fanatical, it's beyond crazy that anyone who wants a cleaned up sport finds this acceptable.
Above does not proof either way Wiggins is Doping. But it does show that pre-2009 he was one of those who clearly fought doping. And after 2009 somehow it was opportune to go with the gravy train.
Anyone defending this clearly is okay with Omerta, Hypocrisie and lying, just as long as it's for their idol.
Somehow it makes me wonder who are the fanatics.
Franklin said:Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.
1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.
If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).
If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.
Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation.
Joachim said:With the greatest of respect to you, I don't think any of those hold any water whatsoever. They may be your perceptions, Sky may later prove to be the biggest dope fiends the world has ever seen, but those two things are unrelated.
There are plenty of examples of non-GC riders who have turned to dope and have turned into... err...non-GC riders.
The one thing? That one thing is pretty bloody enormous...it's a positive dope test!!!!!
Do you not see that they set themselves up for failure? As would any team that had said the same. To avoid criticism, all they needed to do was keep silent. Omertà. Do you approve of omertà?
Joachim said:With the greatest of respect to you, I don't think any of those hold any water whatsoever. They may be your perceptions, Sky may later prove to be the biggest dope fiends the world has ever seen, but those two things are unrelated.
There are plenty of examples of non-GC riders who have turned to dope and have turned into... err...non-GC riders.
The one thing? That one thing is pretty bloody enormous...it's a positive dope test!!!!!
Do you not see that they set themselves up for failure? As would any team that had said the same. To avoid criticism, all they needed to do was keep silent. Omertà. Do you approve of omertà?
Franklin said:Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.
1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.
If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).
If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.
Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation.
bianchigirl said:Am also struck by how similar these 2 statements are http://www.scribd.com/doc/31833754/Lance-Armstrong-Testimony around page 114 and this http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs and we all now how truthful the former was...
bianchigirl said:Almost like someone, maybe a newly minted lady, just followed the Armstrong play book word for word
mastersracer said:fine, but, then, the whole sport is suspicious. Indeed, all of sports is suspicious, from ping pong to football. But why all the focus here on Sky?
And not a mention that Tuft has found his old form (for example).
Franklin said:This is partially caused by the Lance-UCI shehanigans. In fact last week Sky had dropped from the first page of the Clinic. And now that Leinders popped up in the Rabo scandal and Wiggins made a statement it's hot again. FOTM.
There are threads on Gilbert (Ibarguen!), Landis, AC etc.
But let's look at Evans; why is there less about him? quite simple because he doesn't fuel the fires as Wiggins did. Wiggins threw the gauntlet and that triggered this poo-storm.
If you act holier than holy, it's only natural if people compare your words with facts. Especially DB really comes out bad in that light. And that is another thing, BC, SKY, Wiggo, DB they are identified as one... and that is certainly partly their own doing.
If Wiggo is the face of clean cycling I certainly take issue with his words and with Sky as a team. For me there are too many questions. And handwaving by either Sky or the fans... well that evokes a reaction.
jamiephillips said:I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?
*Apologies if discusssed already*
JRanton said:Those comments by Wiggins about Landis back in 2010 are absolutely disgusting given that he knew at the time that Landis was telling the truth.
How on earth can anyone defend that?