Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[Franklin]

I don't think Wiggins is at all bothered. About anything really. TdF Champion, Olympic TT champion, fukloads of Gold medals, some other race wins. Pretty impressive palmares for somebody with little natural self-belief.

Opinion: I think almost everyone in his position cares about the opinion of others. It's his legacy (he said something similar in an interview).

But, as things go, he looks totally relaxed and open.

Opinion: I'd say he looks absolutely uncomfortable and is tripping up all the time. His last week statements about the TdF and the Giro were just another example of retractions and evasions.

But for him I hope you are right. I wish him the best.

 

[martinvickers]

Well.... Roche's year was imho of a different calibre. Not only did he do a grand slam, the wins were absolutely mindblowingly epic.

Ah, I rememeber - even now, after all I know about how he did it, I still find La Plagne goosebump territory - as for Giro, only saw it in highlights, as it were (a bit like Kelly's 88 Vuelta) - but the narrative of the ragbag army Roche put together to defeat his own team always struck me as one of the more romantic GT stories.

Wigins wins were definitely superbe considering his talents and how it was executed. But I think (opinion^^) his most epic ride was the OS stage race where he tried to let Cav win. I doubt you'll find much experts who will extoll the drama and epicness of last year's TdF, especially compared to the knife fight between Perico and Roche

But yeah, I think you are right, Wiggo will be fine. And if he's clean it's well deserved.

 

[SundayRider]

I don't think Wiggins is at all bothered. About anything really. TdF Champion, Olympic TT champion, fukloads of Gold medals, some other race wins. Pretty impressive palmares for somebody with little natural self-belief.

You are right, there is not a whiff of suspicion around him (sorry, a few anonymous loudmouths on a forum don't count for anything).

That may change, he may be totally full of ***, he may go down in flames. Nothing would surprise me. But, as things go, he looks totally relaxed and open.

Paul Kimmage one of the most respected anti-doping journalists has his doubts, think that counts as a whiff of suspicion. Being only 30 seconds back on a doped Armstrong in the 2009 tour, Leinders, going from autobus to contender in 2yrs, his blood values being similar to Landis, I could go on and on and on...

 

[the sceptic]

I would like to know how a clean Wiggins could be only 1 minute behind on Verbier.

 

[Franklin]

Paul Kimmage one of the most respected anti-doping journalists has his doubts, think that counts as a whiff of suspicion.

I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.

Being only 30 seconds back on a doped Armstrong in the 2009 tour

(thankfully!) not evidence.

Leinders

A definite black eye for the team and DB, but no evidence that he injected BW.

going from autobus to contender in 2yrs

Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.

his blood values being similar to Landis

There were marked differences though. But I guess his values of 2009 are the closest we get to "evidence".

I could go on and on and on...

Yeah you could. And I certainly agree it ain't over and that these questions need to be asked.

But if we look at TdF winners Wiggins seems to have remarkably little against him. I can think of several levels more trouble for Evans.

Wiggins is the first one I really don't know. And that's the first time in a long long time. And that itself gives me enough reason to pause and ask the neccesary questions

 

[The Hitch]

Being only 30 seconds back on a doped Armstrong in the 2009 tour, ..

He was actually better than Armstrong. He lost 20 seconds or something in that joke ttt where Astana had a super team. He also lost 40 seconds when Armstrong broke with HTC.

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins is the first one I really don't know. And that's the first time in a long long time. And that itself gives me enough reason to pause and ask the neccesary questions

You have some info on Sastre that we don't?

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think Wiggins is at all bothered. About anything really. TdF Champion, Olympic TT champion, fukloads of Gold medals, some other race wins. Pretty impressive palmares for somebody with little natural self-belief.

Yeah he aint bothered, it is why he doesnt get so angry and aggessive, not being bothered.

You are right, there is not a whiff of suspicion around him (sorry, a few anonymous loudmouths on a forum don't count for anything).

<snip>

Straight from Sky central that quote.

No whiff of suspicion but lets fire the backroom team and doctor. hahahahaha!

 

[Franklin]

You have some info on Sastre that we don't?

Yeah, I was wondering if I should add Sastre. The issue with Sastre is Riis and that's not evidence, so I have to agree with you here.

But I was stating that Wiggo was the first time I really have doubts. With Sastre I don't doubt... and I fully agree that's double standards. Just the association with Riis completely voids it in my mind.

 

[Franklin]

No whiff of suspicion

Indeed, a subtle, but important difference from evidence. It's insane to deny suspicions, just look at the Sky thread

 

[sniper]

...
No whiff of suspicion but lets fire the backroom team and doctor. hahahahaha!

good one.

I assume that as soon as Leinders' name was mentioned in relation to PED-abuse at Rabo, it was alarm-code red at Sky headquarters.
Imo, the firing of all those loyal staff members was some sort of a panic reaction, a (only partially succesful) attempt to throw up a major smokescreen in response to the threat posed by the Leinders-Rabo fiasco.

 

[mastersracer]

Indeed, a subtle, but important difference from evidence. It's insane to deny suspicions, just look at the Sky thread

fine, but, then, the whole sport is suspicious. Indeed, all of sports is suspicious, from ping pong to football. But why all the focus here on Sky?

And not a mention that Tuft has found his old form (for example).

 

[Joachim]

Indeed, a subtle, but important difference from evidence. It's insane to deny suspicions, just look at the Sky thread

I'm afraid I don't attach much importance to the shrill rantings of a handful of loons on the Internet.

The desperate genuflexions that have taken place to try and conjure something out of nothing have been hilarious to behold. Claims such as 'Wiggins has come out of nowhere', 'Sky tactics look like USPS', etc.Then you've got the risible attempts from halfwits to try and bend data that they clearly don't understand (notice how that one has died a death).

No. The world isn't listening to you guys. Sorry.

(No offence intended towards you, Franklin)

 

[Franklin]

fine, but, then, the whole sport is suspicious. <snip silliness, as this is about cycling> But why all the focus here on Sky?

This is partially caused by the Lance-UCI shehanigans. In fact last week Sky had dropped from the first page of the Clinic. And now that Leinders popped up in the Rabo scandal and Wiggins made a statement it's hot again. FOTM.

There are threads on Gilbert (Ibarguen!), Landis, AC etc.

But let's look at Evans; why is there less about him? quite simple because he doesn't fuel the fires as Wiggins did. Wiggins threw the gauntlet and that triggered this poo-storm.

If you act holier than holy, it's only natural if people compare your words with facts. Especially DB really comes out bad in that light. And that is another thing, BC, SKY, Wiggo, DB they are identified as one... and that is certainly partly their own doing.

If Wiggo is the face of clean cycling I certainly take issue with his words and with Sky as a team. For me there are too many questions. And handwaving by either Sky or the fans... well that evokes a reaction.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.
(thankfully!) not evidence.

Here we go again with the "evidence" argument. What do we wait for? 20 years from now Wiggo finally admits? What *specific* facts meet the threshold of sufficient evidence. A positive??? (Not going to happen)

But if we look at TdF winners Wiggins seems to have remarkably little against him. I can think of several levels more trouble for Evans.

Oh, really? You mean he burst out of track like Altig and took a Grand Tour and a number of other events by storm. Oh wait, that didn't happen.

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Evans deserves/has his own thread.

 

[Franklin]

I'm afraid I don't attach much importance to the shrill rantings of a handful of loons on the Internet.

Considering DB did dismiss Leinders due to the criticism (note not because of the clinic, but it were the same complaints) and considering that Kimmage and a cycling mag editor (forgot his name) started questioning it all I'd say there are plenty of suspicions outside this special place on the internet.

In fact Wiggins "w@nk3rs" outburst himself shows that there are many who harbor suspicions!

So you are pretty insular here. Even those involved disagree flat out with you here.

 

[Joachim]

Here we go again with the "evidence" argument.

You don't seem to understand the concept of justice

 

[the sceptic]

I'm afraid I don't attach much importance to the shrill rantings of a handful of loons on the Internet.

Why do you spend almost every day trolling the sky threads then?

 

[Benotti69]

Why do you spend almost every day trolling the sky threads then?

He is a Sky net cyborg.

 

[Franklin]

You might have missed that I'm one of the stalwarts questioning Sky.

Here we go again with the "evidence" argument. What do we wait for? 20 years from now Wiggo finally admits? What *specific* facts meet the threshold of sufficient evidence. A positive??? (Not going to happen)

At least something more substantial than what we have now. As the Hitch add Sastre, what we have against Wiggins is paper thin. With evans we have soigneurs caught with a bag of dope and a team with an inky black history.

With Wiggins we have only tentative questions. And there are certainly benign answers possible.

Yeah I doubt! But there is no smoking gun.

Oh, really? You mean he burst out of track like Altig and took a Grand Tour by storm. Oh wait, that didn't happen.

And that proofs nothing.... One has to be the first. Unlikely... I'm with you! I find it all rather much and there needs an awful lot of explaining (a very, very bad sign in my opinion as I do not believe in fairytales). But that said, the direct evidence is remarkably absent. Usually there are inside mutterings or rumours, but just like Sastre it's crickets.

There has to be some direct evidence before the Unions/WADA start handing out bans. it's a simple requirement of decent justice.

I also 100% support questioning and grilling those involved for answers... and the longer they stall the more troublesome it becomes.

 

[Joachim]

Considering DB did dismiss Leinders due to the criticism (note not because of the clinic, but it were the same complaints) and considering that Kimmage and a cycling mag editor (forgot his name) started questioning it all I'd say there are plenty of suspicions outside this special place on the internet.

In fact Wiggins "w@nk3rs" outburst himself shows that there are many who harbor suspicions!

So you are pretty insular here. Even those involved disagree flat out with you here.

Wiggins outburst was directed at a journalist asking him about anonymous accusations on Twitter.

Kimmage picked up on the Leinders thing, quite rightly, in my view. He seems to have gone a bit quiet about it now. It's a bit of a one-trick pony if there is nothing else to go on. Even Kimmage was incredibly guarded about how he voiced his interest in Leinders.

 

[Joachim]

Why do you spend almost every day trolling the sky threads then?

Funnily enough, I'm one of a small handful of people who arent trolls, from both sides of the fence.

You certainly aren't on that list.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the worst that can happen (barring a positive of him/teammate) is being destroyed by the competition, making his win a worthless fluke. The Brittish press might not be gentle

If this is the case, I'm sure he can use the motivation issue. After all, he can argue that he's been to the top of the mountain, he's achieved Olympic glory on track and road, won the Tour de France, all that's missing is the Worlds. Motivating yourself to repeat past glories is not the same as motivating yourself to achieve something you've never done before. The press would buy that.

I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.

I take it you'll be joining me in defending Juanjo Cobo's Vuelta win as a triumph for clean cycling then?

Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.

His ITT standard improved drastically over the last 2-3 years. He went from being a prologue specialist who would come top 10ish in mid-length TTs and occasionally win when the guys like Cancellara weren't there, to a guy who puts minutes into everybody and wins every full length TT he enters (and is 2nd in every prologue).

You have some info on Sastre that we don't?

Just extrapolating from Wiggins' statements?

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Yeah I doubt! But there is no smoking gun.

Leinders could be the gun.

And that proofs nothing.... One has to be the first. Unlikely... I'm with you! I find it all rather much and there needs an awful lot of explaining (a very, very bad sign in my opinion as I do not believe in fairytales). But that said, the direct evidence is remarkably absent. Usually there are inside mutterings or rumours, but just like Sastre it's crickets.

To compare Sastre and Wiggins. Riis sent his riders to Fuentes, that we know from Shcelck and Hamilton. Sky hired Leinders. Sastre's name has not appeared in the Fuentes list. Leinders is a doping doctor, h Rabo trial is showing that. To me that is smoke and where there is smoke in cycling......

There has to be some direct evidence before the Unions/WADA start handing out bans. it's a simple requirement of decent justice.

The clinic is a forum.

I also 100% support questioning and grilling those involved for answers... and the longer they stall the more troublesome it becomes.

Leinders might spill the beans on Sky if he can get some lenience for doing so.

 

[Franklin]

I take it you'll be joining me in defending Juanjo Cobo's Vuelta win as a triumph for clean cycling then?

Good call

Cobo is definitely more troublesome due to his team background. In this we have no direct evidence, but considering almost every rider who popped above the median from Saunier Duval has been implicated my hopes are remote.

It's definitely something Wiggins does not carry. In fact his reaction when confronted with doped riders was at least somewhat hopeful (and are just that, words which he belied since then).

But yeah, with what I know of Cobo... he's innocent. Definitely questionable, but that goes for every GT winner.

His ITT standard improved drastically over the last 2-3 years. He went from being a prologue specialist who would come top 10ish in mid-length TTs and occasionally win when the guys like Cancellara weren't there, to a guy who puts minutes into everybody and wins every full length TT he enters (and is 2nd in every prologue).

Yeps, definitely eyepopping. Definitely worth discussing and not something to be wiped of the table. But smoking gun? Nope.

Just extrapolating from Wiggins' statements?

Hellll no

Sastre simply has Riis in his bagage.. and for me personally that makes me incredulous. Keep in mind is that my sliver of doubt that Wiggins is dirty is a personal thing. If we look at the evidence Sastre gets a big pass.

My position that there is as yet no smoking gun against Sky/Wiggins does not mean I want to end the discussion. At the contrary I find that the Clinic asks the right questions and that anyone railing against it is simply not interested in cleaning up the sport.

But in the end we need to have a framework of fair justice. Some(most?) will slip through, but that's part of how it works. We can't start punishing people without good evidence.