Wiggins, Clinic respect?

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Re: Re:

Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
I know you consider at least six impossible things a day if that makes you loved ones look better.

Seriously, nothing in the TUE administration process would surprise me anymore, but I can hardly believe they would input typos in such essential documents of sports medicine. You think Zorzoli's authorization of 30/6/11 is typo as well?
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
Seriously, nothing in the TUE administration process would surprise me anymore, but I can hardly believe they would input typos in such essential documents of sports medicine. You think Zorzoli's authorization of 30/6/11 is typo as well?
Go and have a look at Froome's TUEs. One of those they had to reissue not once but twice to correct errors. They got the expiration date wrong twice.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
The problem with Fancy Bears hack is they didn't publish any of the the attached files. There's 8 mentions of 'see attached files' in his TUEs but they didn't include those in the hack. They didn't because it would make the TUE look like its use was justified I assume, and the purpose of the hack was to try and make out athletes were cheating with TUEs not treating illnesses. If there was evidence in the files, they had been faked, missing or whatever, Fancy Bears would have published them surely.

I think the 2/7/11 is the right date. It reads to me that the ENT provided the June RAST test with the TUE application, Wiggins had the injection on 29th June and then on the morning of the Tour de France starting performed the Endoscopy Examination I assume to confirm the difference between the Maximial therapy he was on for the previous 3 years RAST had been resolved by the injection 3 days earlier. It sounds like Wiggins was suffering rhinitus between Dauphine & Tour. Zorzoli simply added to the TUE comments on 2/7/11 after the test I guess.

One obvious thing is clearly if the jiffy bag was triamcinolone injection, Wiggins RAST test and ENT would all have to be fake, because that injection would have cured any rhinitus and so everything would need to be fabricated by Hargreaves and Freeman to have a realistic-looking TUE application. Would be fascinating to see all those attached files.

Also Wiggins was tested for winning National RR on 26th June 2011. Clearly any intra-muscular injection at Dauphine two weeks earlier would still be detectable and he would risk low immune system in 3rd week of Tour, which wouldn't make sense to do? I'm not sure if Triamcinolone can be masked, but not 100%
 
Aug 3, 2010
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Re: Re:

samhocking said:
Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
The problem with Fancy Bears hack is they didn't publish any of the the attached files. There's 8 mentions of 'see attached files' in his TUEs but they didn't include those in the hack. They didn't because it would make the TUE look like its use was justified I assume, and the purpose of the hack was to try and make out athletes were cheating with TUEs not treating illnesses. If there was evidence in the files, they had been faked, missing or whatever, Fancy Bears would have published them surely.

I think the 2/7/11 is the right date. It reads to me that the ENT provided the June RAST test with the TUE application, Wiggins had the injection on 29th June and then on the morning of the Tour de France starting performed the Endoscopy Examination I assume to confirm the difference between the Maximial therapy he was on for the previous 3 years RAST had been resolved by the injection 3 days earlier. It sounds like Wiggins was suffering rhinitus between Dauphine & Tour. Zorzoli simply added to the TUE comments on 2/7/11 after the test I guess.

One obvious thing is clearly if the jiffy bag was triamcinolone injection, Wiggins RAST test and ENT would all have to be fake, because that injection would have cured any rhinitus and so everything would need to be fabricated by Hargreaves and Freeman to have a realistic-looking TUE application. Would be fascinating to see all those attached files.

Also Wiggins was tested for winning National RR on 26th June 2011. Clearly any intra-muscular injection at Dauphine two weeks earlier would still be detectable and he would risk low immune system in 3rd week of Tour, which wouldn't make sense to do? I'm not sure if Triamcinolone can be masked, but not 100%
So now it's simply down to typos. A couple of you have lost all sense of reality in your attempt to defend him. None of us know the truth, but some here are sure trying to manufacture it. It is getting pretty old.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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Re: Re:

"Considering half your posts are personal attacks on posters, questioning and making assumptions about their motives, I'm not sure if "discuss what you know" is advice you should be giving"

After reading through the last few days of the forum, I couldn't agree more.
 
Re: Re:

samhocking said:
Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
The problem with Fancy Bears hack is they didn't publish any of the the attached files. There's 8 mentions of 'see attached files' in his TUEs but they didn't include those in the hack. They didn't because it would make the TUE look like its use was justified I assume, and the purpose of the hack was to try and make out athletes were cheating with TUEs not treating illnesses. If there was evidence in the files, they had been faked, missing or whatever, Fancy Bears would have published them surely.

I think the 2/7/11 is the right date. It reads to me that the ENT provided the June RAST test with the TUE application, Wiggins had the injection on 29th June and then on the morning of the Tour de France starting performed the Endoscopy Examination I assume to confirm the difference between the Maximial therapy he was on for the previous 3 years RAST had been resolved by the injection 3 days earlier. It sounds like Wiggins was suffering rhinitus between Dauphine & Tour. Zorzoli simply added to the TUE comments on 2/7/11 after the test I guess.

One obvious thing is clearly if the jiffy bag was triamcinolone injection, Wiggins RAST test and ENT would all have to be fake, because that injection would have cured any rhinitus and so everything would need to be fabricated by Hargreaves and Freeman to have a realistic-looking TUE application. Would be fascinating to see all those attached files.

Also Wiggins was tested for winning National RR on 26th June 2011. Clearly any intra-muscular injection at Dauphine two weeks earlier would still be detectable and he would risk low immune system in 3rd week of Tour, which wouldn't make sense to do? I'm not sure if Triamcinolone can be masked, but not 100%
I thought I saw someone, in some of these threads, posting a link to study that showed around 12 days being the time the 40mg doze is traceable in the systems.
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
samhocking said:
Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
The problem with Fancy Bears hack is they didn't publish any of the the attached files. There's 8 mentions of 'see attached files' in his TUEs but they didn't include those in the hack. They didn't because it would make the TUE look like its use was justified I assume, and the purpose of the hack was to try and make out athletes were cheating with TUEs not treating illnesses. If there was evidence in the files, they had been faked, missing or whatever, Fancy Bears would have published them surely.

I think the 2/7/11 is the right date. It reads to me that the ENT provided the June RAST test with the TUE application, Wiggins had the injection on 29th June and then on the morning of the Tour de France starting performed the Endoscopy Examination I assume to confirm the difference between the Maximial therapy he was on for the previous 3 years RAST had been resolved by the injection 3 days earlier. It sounds like Wiggins was suffering rhinitus between Dauphine & Tour. Zorzoli simply added to the TUE comments on 2/7/11 after the test I guess.

One obvious thing is clearly if the jiffy bag was triamcinolone injection, Wiggins RAST test and ENT would all have to be fake, because that injection would have cured any rhinitus and so everything would need to be fabricated by Hargreaves and Freeman to have a realistic-looking TUE application. Would be fascinating to see all those attached files.

Also Wiggins was tested for winning National RR on 26th June 2011. Clearly any intra-muscular injection at Dauphine two weeks earlier would still be detectable and he would risk low immune system in 3rd week of Tour, which wouldn't make sense to do? I'm not sure if Triamcinolone can be masked, but not 100%
I thought I saw someone, in some of these threads, posting a link to study that showed around 12 days being the time the 40mg doze is traceable in the systems.
I'm not sure. Medical documents for KENALOG 40 state elimination half life is between 18.7 ± 5.7 days. That would leave things very dependent on being in the -5.7 days group at 13 days. Gap between Dauphine and Nationals was 19 days later. Of course OOC could have happened before that. Sutton seems to suggest they were tested at Sestrierre iirc?

Interestingly in the 2012 TUE, is mention of an OPC Letter as well as the ENT Consultant & RAST test. OPC Letter is an Outpatient Clinic Letter I assume discharging Wiggins from the clinic and the comments say the Surgeon this time is advising Triamcinolone. ENT Consultant Simon Hargreaves is also a surgeon, so I wonder if Wiggins had some form of Nasal operation. Can't believe you would need an OPC letter to discharge you simply for a RAST test, which is basically you just giving a blood sample and going home and waiting for the results to come back which take about a week ot so I believe. I certainly don't have an OPC letter for my RAST tests anyway. Maybe you need to go private lol!
 
Re: Re:

spetsa said:
samhocking said:
Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
The problem with Fancy Bears hack is they didn't publish any of the the attached files. There's 8 mentions of 'see attached files' in his TUEs but they didn't include those in the hack. They didn't because it would make the TUE look like its use was justified I assume, and the purpose of the hack was to try and make out athletes were cheating with TUEs not treating illnesses. If there was evidence in the files, they had been faked, missing or whatever, Fancy Bears would have published them surely.

I think the 2/7/11 is the right date. It reads to me that the ENT provided the June RAST test with the TUE application, Wiggins had the injection on 29th June and then on the morning of the Tour de France starting performed the Endoscopy Examination I assume to confirm the difference between the Maximial therapy he was on for the previous 3 years RAST had been resolved by the injection 3 days earlier. It sounds like Wiggins was suffering rhinitus between Dauphine & Tour. Zorzoli simply added to the TUE comments on 2/7/11 after the test I guess.

One obvious thing is clearly if the jiffy bag was triamcinolone injection, Wiggins RAST test and ENT would all have to be fake, because that injection would have cured any rhinitus and so everything would need to be fabricated by Hargreaves and Freeman to have a realistic-looking TUE application. Would be fascinating to see all those attached files.

Also Wiggins was tested for winning National RR on 26th June 2011. Clearly any intra-muscular injection at Dauphine two weeks earlier would still be detectable and he would risk low immune system in 3rd week of Tour, which wouldn't make sense to do? I'm not sure if Triamcinolone can be masked, but not 100%
So now it's simply down to typos. A couple of you have lost all sense of reality in your attempt to defend him. None of us know the truth, but some here are sure trying to manufacture it. It is getting pretty old.
2/7/11 is not a typo, that was the nasal endoscopy test. I would imagine because Wiggins wasn't responding to maximial therapy, the ENT had to perform a final Endoscopy. An Endoscopy is usually performed if there have been severe nasal complications and needs to see what the situation is with any nasal polyps or sinusitis complications a few days after the injection it appears.
 
Re: Re:

samhocking said:
2/7/11 is not a typo, that was the nasal endoscopy test. I would imagine because Wiggins wasn't responding to maximial therapy, the ENT had to perform a final Endoscopy. An Endoscopy is usually performed if there have been severe nasal complications and needs to see what the situation is with any nasal polyps or sinusitis complications a few days after the injection it appears.
So a report dated 29 June mention a test that happened three days into the future?

I think a typo is a more reasonable explanation than time travel.
 
Re: Re:

samhocking said:
TourOfSardinia said:
All allergy relief is preventative. You shouldn't wait, you take the prevention medication when you are perfectly well to prevent the likely debilitating attack your RAST test confirms is likely to happen and how badly it will happen.
Surely not sam.
Otherwise the entire population would be taking every drug under the sun just in case.
Homeopathic remedies are safe to take in the absence of symptoms
but don't pile up on anything else.
It doesn't work like that for allergies. I agree, for general illness, sure, piling up on preventative medicine (not that there is many anyway) is pointless, because you don't know if, when or what you might be ill from in the future as it's not decided by your own body like allergies, but a RAST tests confirms you will most definitely suffer an allergic reaction when exposed to that particular trigger, be it a type of pollen, spore, or heat or whatever is the trigger and from that result you can then decide what medical treatment is required to prevent that happening. Calculating when to go from maximal therapy via oral treatments to injected ones is pretty simply to equate, it's not difficult. I think Wiggins should attempt to show Hargreaves report, the RASTs and lung function test results for his TUE. He shouldn't do anything for the Jiffy Bag, but the TUEs I think he could go a fair way with the previous medical record he clear has for what he suffers from according to his TUE notes anyway.
Gotta say Sam, a lot of what you're saying today sounds logical and well researched. Allergies are not something I know much about but presuming you're correct on the tests, processes etc then it should be pretty easy for Brad to start to fight back against these accusations.
I mean I don't think it's ever going to be black and white, but if he starts to push some medical history of testing, diagnosis and treatment out into the public domain along the lines of what you suggest will be in place, he might get a few more people onside than he will by just whining about unfair it all is like he did on the BBC interview.
 
Re: Re:

brownbobby said:
samhocking said:
TourOfSardinia said:
All allergy relief is preventative. You shouldn't wait, you take the prevention medication when you are perfectly well to prevent the likely debilitating attack your RAST test confirms is likely to happen and how badly it will happen.
Surely not sam.
Otherwise the entire population would be taking every drug under the sun just in case.
Homeopathic remedies are safe to take in the absence of symptoms
but don't pile up on anything else.
It doesn't work like that for allergies. I agree, for general illness, sure, piling up on preventative medicine (not that there is many anyway) is pointless, because you don't know if, when or what you might be ill from in the future as it's not decided by your own body like allergies, but a RAST tests confirms you will most definitely suffer an allergic reaction when exposed to that particular trigger, be it a type of pollen, spore, or heat or whatever is the trigger and from that result you can then decide what medical treatment is required to prevent that happening. Calculating when to go from maximal therapy via oral treatments to injected ones is pretty simply to equate, it's not difficult. I think Wiggins should attempt to show Hargreaves report, the RASTs and lung function test results for his TUE. He shouldn't do anything for the Jiffy Bag, but the TUEs I think he could go a fair way with the previous medical record he clear has for what he suffers from according to his TUE notes anyway.
Gotta say Sam, a lot of what you're saying today sounds logical and well researched. Allergies are not something I know much about but presuming you're correct on the tests, processes etc then it should be pretty easy for Brad to start to fight back against these accusations.
I mean I don't think it's ever going to be black and white, but if he starts to push some medical history of testing, diagnosis and treatment out into the public domain along the lines of what you suggest will be in place, he might get a few more people onside than he will by just whining about unfair it all is like he did on the BBC interview.
I agree Sam is giving very plausible explanations.

Which raises the exact question you are suggesting... why the hell hasn't Wiggo and Freeman came out already with plausible medical evidence if everything has good explanations? They've had freaking 1,5 years to explain it all for good if everything has as good explanation as Sam is giving. Freeman's laptop? The TUE attachments are copied to WADA systems and available. I hope for heavens sake Simon Hargreaves did not keep his patient records in Freeman's laptop!

Why haven't they gave a single document to public and investigators during this process if thay have nothing to hide? Why do they take the public execution and just verbally pushing they haven't done anything wrong? Is it only because the question has been about Jiffy Bag? I'm sure they could show that whatever was in the bag was needed based on diagnoses for the TUE's at the time if that would be the case. At least they would get more public backing on their cause.

The less actual evidence one provides the more suspicious they look.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
yaco said:
It's a fact that many athletes, especially those in contact sports live on pain killing injections - It's not unknown for athletes to have 10 or 15 pain-killing injections to get up for next weeks match.
Two a day for a year: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/john-terry-reveals-he-went-through-a-year-of-daily-painkiller-injections-to-play-for-jose-mourinhos-a3554976.html

Andrew Flintoff said last year that he had 90 cortisone shots in his career. One paper back then dubbed him the 'Cortisone King': http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/cortisone-king-flintoff-ready-for-test-487353.html
Flintoff had 90 injections, are we sure about the weight loss properties of cortisone??
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
Why haven't they gave a single document to public and investigators during this process if thay have nothing to hide? Why do they take the public execution and just verbally pushing they haven't done anything wrong? Is it only because the question has been about Jiffy Bag? I'm sure they could show that whatever was in the bag was needed based on diagnoses for the TUE's at the time if that would be the case. At least they would get more public backing on their cause.

The less actual evidence one provides the more suspicious they look.
Here's an idea. Maybe the journalist who started the jiffy bag story should tell us what was in it.

Their accusers have provided less evidence than Sky have.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
bambino said:
Why haven't they gave a single document to public and investigators during this process if thay have nothing to hide? Why do they take the public execution and just verbally pushing they haven't done anything wrong? Is it only because the question has been about Jiffy Bag? I'm sure they could show that whatever was in the bag was needed based on diagnoses for the TUE's at the time if that would be the case. At least they would get more public backing on their cause.

The less actual evidence one provides the more suspicious they look.
Here's an idea. Maybe the journalist who started the jiffy bag story should tell us what was in it.

Their accusers have provided less evidence than Sky have.
Sky hasn't gave a jack ***. Just contradicting words. Media doesn't need to provide evidence. They question by nature. And if one provide sloppy answers they'll question more. That's how the cookie crumbles.
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
Sky hasn't gave a jack ****. Just contradicting words. Media doesn't need to provide evidence. They question by nature. And if one provide sloppy answers they'll question more. That's how the cookie crumbles.
No the media should write stories with facts from sources. Not say I'm suspicious of you, now tell me why.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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pastronef said:
El Pistolero said:
pastronef said:
March 2009 piece, among other athletes with Asthma, Bradley Wiggins

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1160225/Breathe-easy--control-asthma.html
Yeah, this proves Bradley is oh so clean. :rolleyes:
Bradley is not clean. but interesting the Daily Mail names his asthma in a March 2009 piece, even before he was 4th at the Tour
Someone can be asthmatic and still be a cheater. Besides, isn't the argument that the medication he used was over-kill and there were better, less drastic solutions for his ailments? Yet he decided to take Triamcinolon... which might I add has no effect if the asthma attack has already started.
 
samhocking said:
I tend to agree with Parker. In road racing performed outdoors over 3 weeks, with calorific output the same as running 20-odd marathons back-to-back every day, athletes will simply not survive without medical support. While we may applaud riders like Tim Wellens refusing his doctor trying to inject him with Triamcinolone with a TUE to cure his allergies suffered in the race and pulling out instead, if every rider refused medical support throughout the race this way, half the peloton would not exist, sponsors not be happy, riders unhappy they can't race and you would have perhaps a few dozen stragglers for GC in Paris and time gaps so huge there would be no actual GC race whatsoever after two weeks, letalone 3. It would be more like the days of Henri Desgrange where upto 3/4 of the starters never even make it to Paris due to poor health, crashes and injury left untreated without medical support allowed or even considered then and the time gaps from 1st to2nd place over 2 hours lol! As much as we want bread and water racing, it's not possible. Perhaps one day a team will launch that doesn't include any doctors on its staff lol, but they are there for a reason and thats to keep riders healthy in what is a very unhealthy activity without it as seen in non-medical support days of Henri Desgrange etc.

The problem with the TUE system for Corticosteroids especially, is we all know riders like Millar, Jascch, Rasmussen and everyone back then would get their doctor to fake they had a joint or tendon injury, because an Intra-Articular injection of Triamcinolone to fix it, would normally be granted under TUE easily back then. Once granted by UCI, then their team doctor would simply inject the rider intra-muscularly in the bum, not their fake knee or ankle injury and so the rider got the performance benefit of the Triamcinolone and the TUE protection because you can't easily detect route of administration of it. That was abuse of the TUE system, that was using fake injury to apply for TUEs under the premise you will be using an intra-articular injection to treat it and that wouldn't have such performance benefits, but injecting intra-muscularly once granted, knowing you couldn't get caught if tested from the intra-articular you were meant to have.

Wiggins TUE application was at the opposite end. He wasn't using the easy traditional fake injury to hide under an intra-articular TUE, his TUE was for intra-muscular from the beginning, no pretence. Knowing, his TUE would probably never be known about, why go to all that bother with the asthma documentation and trying to get a TUE for an unlikely intra-muscular injection if you don't really need to apply for with such complexity? As we saw with Wellens, clearly team doctors are treating riders for illness and injury in races with it still and I would expect them to be I think, because a rider invested all that time in training and shouldn't have to pull out, just because riders like Millar, Jascch, Rasmussen abused the system by faking what they are actually suffering from legitimately and not trying to abuse the system, but now in fear of us the fans based on the misdemeanours of their previous generation.
Arguably ... one of the best posts ever on CN.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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Alpe73 said:
samhocking said:
I tend to agree with Parker. In road racing performed outdoors over 3 weeks, with calorific output the same as running 20-odd marathons back-to-back every day, athletes will simply not survive without medical support. While we may applaud riders like Tim Wellens refusing his doctor trying to inject him with Triamcinolone with a TUE to cure his allergies suffered in the race and pulling out instead, if every rider refused medical support throughout the race this way, half the peloton would not exist, sponsors not be happy, riders unhappy they can't race and you would have perhaps a few dozen stragglers for GC in Paris and time gaps so huge there would be no actual GC race whatsoever after two weeks, letalone 3. It would be more like the days of Henri Desgrange where upto 3/4 of the starters never even make it to Paris due to poor health, crashes and injury left untreated without medical support allowed or even considered then and the time gaps from 1st to2nd place over 2 hours lol! As much as we want bread and water racing, it's not possible. Perhaps one day a team will launch that doesn't include any doctors on its staff lol, but they are there for a reason and thats to keep riders healthy in what is a very unhealthy activity without it as seen in non-medical support days of Henri Desgrange etc.

The problem with the TUE system for Corticosteroids especially, is we all know riders like Millar, Jascch, Rasmussen and everyone back then would get their doctor to fake they had a joint or tendon injury, because an Intra-Articular injection of Triamcinolone to fix it, would normally be granted under TUE easily back then. Once granted by UCI, then their team doctor would simply inject the rider intra-muscularly in the bum, not their fake knee or ankle injury and so the rider got the performance benefit of the Triamcinolone and the TUE protection because you can't easily detect route of administration of it. That was abuse of the TUE system, that was using fake injury to apply for TUEs under the premise you will be using an intra-articular injection to treat it and that wouldn't have such performance benefits, but injecting intra-muscularly once granted, knowing you couldn't get caught if tested from the intra-articular you were meant to have.

Wiggins TUE application was at the opposite end. He wasn't using the easy traditional fake injury to hide under an intra-articular TUE, his TUE was for intra-muscular from the beginning, no pretence. Knowing, his TUE would probably never be known about, why go to all that bother with the asthma documentation and trying to get a TUE for an unlikely intra-muscular injection if you don't really need to apply for with such complexity? As we saw with Wellens, clearly team doctors are treating riders for illness and injury in races with it still and I would expect them to be I think, because a rider invested all that time in training and shouldn't have to pull out, just because riders like Millar, Jascch, Rasmussen abused the system by faking what they are actually suffering from legitimately and not trying to abuse the system, but now in fear of us the fans based on the misdemeanours of their previous generation.
Arguably ... one of the best posts ever on CN.
As ridiculous as the post was, at least your giving someone other than yourself credit for being correct.
 
Re: Re:

bambino said:
Parker said:
bambino said:
The 2012 as you mentioned looks legit, but I can't help thinking there is something odd on the 2011 approved TUE which is the one right after Jiffy Bag.

We know they applied for TUE already 30/5/2011, but we don't know for sure whether it was approved or not. Wiggins says it wasn't, Sutton somewhat gives a feeling it was approved.

The approved TUE for 29/6/11 actually states for RAST test performed on June 2011 for gras pollen, thus it can't be the same (can be updated) application as 30/5/11. Any previous TUE doesn't speak about gras pollen allergy nor RAST, but obviously that doesn't prove he didn't have it. In any case, Wiggo went to RAST AFTER the application on 30/5/11, during busy month of racing and training. This TUE also says: "ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic nasal rhinits, and that is on maximal topical treatment >3 years". So the ENT specialist diagnosis was done 3 days after the validity and expiration of TUE, and let's remember, on the same day as the satrt of TDF. And not to mention Zorzoli's authorization date is 30/6/11, day after TUE validity.

Is it perfectly normal that TUE is handed over and the information of diagnosis that the TUE is based are updated after the validity date of TUE? Do we all believe Wiggo was on ENT specialist same day as he started TDF?

I get a feeling there was a level of hurry and "panic" within Sky during month June with Wiggo's allergy TUE and conveniently the Jiffy Bag saga is just in the middle of it, but maybe there is a legic explanation to all this. I think we would all like to hear it from the mouth of Freeman and Wiggo.
Have you considered the possibility that it's just a typo? It probably should be 2/6/11.
I know you consider at least six impossible things a day if that makes you loved ones look better.

Seriously, nothing in the TUE administration process would surprise me anymore, but I can hardly believe they would input typos in such essential documents of sports medicine. You think Zorzoli's authorization of 30/6/11 is typo as well?
Hey Parker:

You do know that your ...... (hmmmmm) 120/80 .... is causing pre-hypertension across the hall, right?

Oh ... the irony! ;)
 

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