Wiggins Discussion Thread

[Richeypen]

^^that, is it that hard to understand that no1 really cares about the track in continental europe? for all i(and most people care) wiggins could have won everything on the track for the past 50 years and we would still say that any1 with a GT or a monument win, which wasn't a total fluke ofc, is a better cyclist then him. deal with it.

To be perfectly honnest I dont care what you 'care'. Wiggins is one of the most successful cyclists currently riding, thats not opinion its fact. Just because you and other people don't follow Track cycling doesn't make it any less of a medium. I dont follow Cyclocross or MTB but I dont dismiss their riders' accomplishments.

 

[Kvinto]

If forum discussions had to take place around what riders said this forum would be pretty boring.

the discussion has somehow moved onto these comparisons between Wiggins and Valverde.

Can we compare the 2 riders - an interesting discussion, or do we have to wait for them to actually bad mouth each-other in a race before we can proceed?

Well, it confuses people. This post (right after the end of the stage):

Everyone knows I'm not Valverde's biggest fan, but when someone says he got his palmares because of doping alone then you know they're full of crap. I bet Valverde has already more road victories this season than Bradley Wiggins in his entire career.

That made me think Wiggo did say something like this in the post-race comments. Thanks God he didn't.

 

[The Hitch]

This track vs importance discussion also came up in the other Wiggins thread.

Maybe so, bottle doesn't have the track palmares to compare with though and Brad has morphed from a pure trackie to a very good stage racer.

Nobody cares about track but a few brits and aussies. You might as well bring up his record playing croquet. As it is Wiggins has one stage race win, and that race had a crappy route.

I'm with Damiano on this one.

Wiggins "morphed" from a track rider to a GC contender?

Yeah. He morphed all right. The British Bottle is the best and most apt moniker I have heard for Wiggins.

 

[Mambo95]

No one cares about the track in continental Europe. It means nothing on the road.

no1 cares about the track,

They may not care about the track, but they do care about the Olympics. Here's a little medal table of the last two Summer Olympics.


Wiggins G: 3 S:1 B:1
Belgium G: 2 S:1 B:2
Portugal G: 1 S:3 B:1

 

[Parrulo]

They may not care about the track, but they do care about the Olympics. Here's a little medal table of the last two Summer Olympics.


Wiggins G: 3 S:1 B:1
Belgium G: 2 S:1 B:2
Portugal G: 1 S:3 B:1

oh that hurts so much, what an humiliation . . .

you appear to be a bit **** hurt because of the simple truth that people outside of the uk and a couple other countries simply don't rate track. also it can be argued that the uk's success on the track has a big help from the fact the biggest talents from the big cycling countries (sorry to break your little bubble but the uk isn't one yet) simply don't even bother trying out the track and go for the road where the prestige and the money is, or are you going to argue that this isn't the truth?

btw the only thing wiggins is better then valverde at is at time trialing, valverde is a better climber, a much better descender and sprinter and classics rider which makes him a better overall cyclist then wiggins.

p.s. just fyi i don't even dislike wiggins, yes i am no fan but i am far from disliking i think he is a stylish rider and one of the top second tier GC rider being the first tier contador, evans, schleck, samu menchov and nibali imo.

 

[Mambo95]

you appear to be a bit **** hurt because of the simple truth that people outside of the uk and a couple other countries simply don't rate track.

I'm not hurt at all. I generally agree with you.

But just because fewer countries take an interest doesn't mean that his achievements are trivial. After all, back when Merckx and De Vlaeminck were ruling the monuments, the riders only came from about three or four countries, but no-one devalues their victories for that.

 

[Parrulo]

I'm not hurt at all. I generally agree with you.

But just because fewer countries take an interest doesn't mean that his achievements are trivial. After all, back when Merckx and De Vlaeminck were ruling the monuments, the riders only came from about three or four countries, but no-one devalues their victories for that.

they aren't trivial, he was a brilliant track rider, i have seen a few videos on youtube from the olympics pursuit it was mighty impressive. i just don't think they make his palmares better then a rider like valverde, no matter how many olympic golds you add.

about merckx and de vlaeminck one thing must be taken into account, those 4 countries still mostly dominate the sport so their performances are imo still relevant of their talent.

p.s. sorry about the **** hurt part, it might have been a bit harsh

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Wiggo won Olympic gold medals and is much more popular man than Valverde will ever be ( bar really big cycling fans ).

Where, exactly? (Not the Olympic gold medals, I know where he won those). There are a lot of places on this planet where nobody's heard of either of them. The Olympics speaks in terms of name recognition, but your name being known ≠ popularity. There are some places where Wiggins is more popular, and other places where Valverde is more popular.

Well thats where you are wrong for a start.

On the track Wiggins has 6 World championships and 3 Olympic gold medals along with countless other podiums. As a road rider Valverde has undoubtabley been more successful, but as a cyclist, Wiggins is up there with the most successful in the world.

The Olympic and World triumphs on the track are impressive, no doubt, but they are also irrelevant to the riders NOW, as road riders. Valverde has by far the superior road palmarès, but Olympic medals speak massive volumes in terms of international prestige. But for much of the continent, the track is a semi-irrelevant side show, and Valverde has a better palmarès at what is seen as the "real deal".

Think of it a bit like NASCAR vs. F1, only with Olympic prestige massively improving NASCAR. The skills are similar but being good at one does not beget being good at the other; people can combine the two in both directions. But ultimately, much of Europe doesn't care about NASCAR, and F1 continues to be their motorsport fix, so Jimmie Johnson's five consecutive NASCAR titles, a brilliant achievement, are not of as much name recognition value in most of Europe as Heikki Kovalainen managing a win or two in a journeyman F1 career. Obviously Olympic achievements cancel out a lot of that disparity, because those are huge wherever you are, but certainly the Track Worlds make barely a ripple in the non-specialist press.

Incidentally, I have heard somewhere that Valverde once as a youngster won the Spanish national Points Race, but I don't know if that was at some younger category or something as I can't seem to verify it.

 

[The Hitch]

p.s. sorry about the **** hurt part, it might have been a bit harsh

Not really. The Valverde hatred that poster was spewing yesterday, its got to hurt at least a little bit today

 

[Mambo95]

Not really. The Valverde hatred that poster was spewing yesterday, its got to hurt at least a little bit today

I don't hate him. I don't hate any cyclist. Why would I? They just entertain us. If I want someone to hate I can find better candidates on the news. Hating sportsmen is something I grew out of when most of you were still soiling your nappies.

I was just pointing out the obvious fact that people like to gloss over. I'd rather Gerrans had beaten him, but most of the time the person I want to win doesn't.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

most of the time the person I want to win doesn't.

that must be hard for you. I want Amets Txurruka to win. ALL of the time the person I want to win doesn't.

 

[Froome19]

p.s. just fyi i don't even dislike wiggins, yes i am no fan but i am far from disliking i think he is a stylish rider and one of the top second tier GC rider being the first tier contador, evans, schleck, samu menchov and nibali imo.

I dont see how you can rate Nibali and Menchov better than Wiggins as a GC rider at their current level...
But i guess we'll find out once and for all in July..

 

[El Pistolero]

They may not care about the track, but they do care about the Olympics. Here's a little medal table of the last two Summer Olympics.


Wiggins G: 3 S:1 B:1
Belgium G: 2 S:1 B:2
Portugal G: 1 S:3 B:1

On a sportive level, winning a Monument means so much more than track gold medal

Only in small sports is the Olympics the most important thing there is

You're really comparing Olympic medal table with two small countries? Compare your self to Spain or Germany and see who laughs then

I don't care if you devaluate cyclocross, it's true, it's mostly one country. Just like road cycling is a lot more competitive than track cycling. Results on the track mean absolutely nothing on the road and Wiggins is a road racer now. He only has 2 decent wins on the road, I can think of a lot of professional cyclists with a better palmares than him. Valverde will win more this season than Wiggins in his entire road career.

 

[Parrulo]

I dont see how you can rate Nibali and Menchov better than Wiggins as a GC rider at their current level...
But i guess we'll find out once and for all in July..

menchov: triple( or double if you wish) GT winner, made it to the podium at the tour which wiggins has never done, much better climber then wiggins similar level of time trialing at the end of a GT and only a bit worse early in a GT also his tour podium is more recent then wiggins better performance at the tour and was arguably stronger then wiggins on the last week of the vuelta ruining his chances of winning by losing silly time on the first week.

nibali: GT winner something wiggins isn't+ 2 times podium at the giro + much younger then wiggins and a rider that has shown improvement every year since he first showed up in 2007 at 22 years of age, again a much better climber then wiggins (already was in 2009 when he was only 24 and his climbing has improved a lot since then) and despite being worse time trialist i highly doubt wiggins can make enough time on him on the itts to stay away in the mountains after all despite not being in top form wiggins still only put one minute into him on the vuelta itt, wiggins nearly lost that to nibali on the only proper mountain stage of the tour in 2009.

so ya imo they are better then wiggins i also rate a on form without bad lucky gesink ahead of wiggins in terms of GT GC

btw i would like to see your arguments to see how wiggins is better then menchov and nibali. let me guess menchov is past it and nibali sucks because of his vuelta performance where he was obviously on the best shape of his life? i think even nibali's biggest hater on this forum (D_T) would agree that he is a better GT rider then wiggins, and classics rider too.

 

[El Pistolero]

I dont see how you can rate Nibali and Menchov better than Wiggins as a GC rider at their current level...
But i guess we'll find out once and for all in July..

Because Nibali has won a GT. This Tour won't prove anything by the way, too biased for time trial specialists like Wiggins. Nibali is a better climber, Wiggins is better in time trials.

 

[Mambo95]

You're really comparing Olympic medal table with two small countries? Compare your self to Spain or Germany and see who laughs then

No, I'm comparing a single person (ironically born in Belgium) with two countries of about 11m people each, one of which is the homeland of the IOC President, so you know they think it's a big deal.


(PS GB were ahead of both Germany and Spain at the 2008 Olympics.)

 

[Parrulo]

No, I'm comparing a single person (ironically born in Belgium) with two countries of about 11m people each, one of which is the homeland of the IOC President, so you know they think it's a big deal.

well what would happen if we compared phelps to england then? 1 one guy vs what? 50 mil people?

just to show you how flawed your argument was and that's why i didn't even bothered to reply to it seriously at the time

 

[Mambo95]

well what would happen if we compared phelps to england then? 1 one guy vs what? 50 mil people?

GB (there's no England at the Olympics) still win. Comfortably.

The difference here is that I wouldn't dream of saying that Phelps is anything but a great, great athlete.

 

[Parrulo]

GB (there's no England at the Olympics) still win. Comfortably.

The difference here is that I wouldn't dream of saying that Phelps is anything but a great, great athlete.

*sight* the fact that you thought my argument was serious (i would have done some research if it was don't you think?) and not a simple way to show you what a bunch of nonsense your argument was says it all i guess.

 

[Froome19]

menchov: triple( or double if you wish) GT winner, made it to the podium at the tour which wiggins has never done, much better climber then wiggins similar level of time trialing at the end of a GT and only a bit worse early in a GT also his tour podium is more recent then wiggins better performance at the tour and was arguably stronger then wiggins on the last week of the vuelta ruining his chances of winning by losing silly time on the first week.

nibali: GT winner something wiggins isn't+ 2 times podium at the giro + much younger then wiggins and a rider that has shown improvement every year since he first showed up in 2007 at 22 years of age, again a much better climber then wiggins (already was in 2009 when he was only 24 and his climbing has improved a lot since then) and despite being worse time trialist i highly doubt wiggins can make enough time on him on the itts to stay away in the mountains after all despite not being in top form wiggins still only put one minute into him on the vuelta itt, wiggins nearly lost that to nibali on the only proper mountain stage of the tour in 2009.

so ya imo they are better then wiggins i also rate a on form without bad lucky gesink ahead of wiggins in terms of GT GC

btw i would like to see your arguments to see how wiggins is better then menchov and nibali. let me guess menchov is past it and nibali sucks because of his vuelta performance where he was obviously on the best shape of his life? i think even nibali's biggest hater on this forum (D_T) would agree that he is a better GT rider then wiggins, and classics rider too.

Indeed true but I said currently and this is 2012 and i believe in this year that Wiggins is better than both of them at GC.

I truly slandered sky the last couple of years at their stupid misconceptions of Wiggins being ever capable of even podiuming at the tour never mind winning the thing. Yet due to the end of last year and this year I am starting to change my mind due to the fact that it seems like Wiggins has improved dramatically ,indeed I have no proof for it as it is merely an opinion based on how he showed in the races he was on form for last year and what has been said about him this year + his perfomance so far in Paris-Nice, but all those articles, races & signs ( and trust me here in britain there are a lot of them) led me to being of the opinion that he has improved to the point of being better than Nibali & Menchov.
Nibali is a perfect GT rider indeed, but I think his climbing, specifically from what he showed at the Giro last year, where he was more in Gadrets slot then Scarponis that, lacks a bit that doesnt seem like improving, so i would say that if wiggins has improved his climbing to that level which I believe he has then obviously there is only one winner due to the TT.
Menchov is still a great GC rider but he lacked something in lasts year in Giro & Vuelta, where at least in one of them he should have been at his best and as he is ageing and to look at who is favorites we should look at most recent results, i am of the opinion he will never truly get that true quality back. Once agains its just my opinion but what else is this forum for, but stating your opinion?

 

[Richeypen]

*sight* the fact that you thought my argument was serious (i would have done some research if it was don't you think?) and not a simple way to show you what a bunch of nonsense your argument was says it all i guess.

Not really. You asked a question, he answered it. The simple fact is that you clearly dont like wiggins, that fine its your personal opinion. Not to recognise that he is a very very talented rider who has had an enormously successful career is plain wrong though.

 

[jens_attacks]

indeed right now wiggins is stronger than valverde in stage races including grand tours.that for me is obvious.
but he has a long way to reach balaverde's palmares.i watch both but for me road>>>>>>track.

 

[Mambo95]

*sight* the fact that you thought my argument was serious (i would have done some research if it was don't you think?) and not a simple way to show you what a bunch of nonsense your argument was says it all i guess.

Sorry, my fault. I'm currently enjoying a nice Shiraz.

(I did wonder why you said you hadn't bothered replying when you had.)

 

[The Hitch]

I don't hate him. I don't hate any cyclist. Why would I? They just entertain us. If I want someone to hate I can find better candidates on the news. Hating sportsmen is something I grew out of when most of you were still soiling your nappies.

I was just pointing out the obvious fact that people like to gloss over. I'd rather Gerrans had beaten him, but most of the time the person I want to win doesn't.

What you are glossing over is that it wasn't a fact it was your own opinion. .

 

[Mambo95]

What you are glossing over is that it wasn't a fact it was your own opinion. .

I don't think Valverde took 18 months off because of my opinion. I'm really not that influential.