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Wiggins Preparation

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badboygolf16v said:
Like me boycotting the TdF can make a difference anyway. Well, when I watched the Giro last year I just switched off. I stopped watching the Tour religiously a long time ago.

All the BS, the lying, the cheating, the dissembling that extends throughout cycling makes me think: why bother?

Then someone like Brad comes along, and for years is very vocal about the problems, someone who makes you think, yeah things might change if people like that talk about it bravely. (Because for sure nothing will happen if everyone shuts up again.) And then gradually, he stops talking about doping and starts playing the game. That's disappointed me.

Brad's not stupid, if he's reading what I'm saying I'm sure he wont treat it with contempt, he'll know where I'm coming from. He's a pro cyclist, who has stated in the past he hated doping. I'm sure he knows the score, as much as he says he doesn't in his recent interviews.

And I'll watch what I want when I want, thanks.

While I understand your longing for him to keep on banging, I'm not with you on the "playing the game" bit conclusion.

I think we as fans have to remember that these guys are not just PR machines, but that their main object is to ride a bike. Actually, they love riding their bikes and so it's not wholly unlikely that they would like to discuss something apart from doping just occasionally.

I know that if I were in the position of being a clean pro rider (I'm not accusing specifically BW of being clean, although I do tend to suspect him of being drug free) I think I'd be very vocal at times, but also not be vocal at other times. It is about the biking...
 
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Yes, I agree with JPM London. Any clean rider must find it very difficult to focus on being beaten by dopers.

Quite often Brad has said that he has to ride as if everyone is clean and let the doping authorities sort it out. Just for his own sanity and to preserve focus.

I think that's one of the reasons he lacked motivation before seeing VDV getting top 10 in the 2008 tour. When he suddenly thought things might be improving.

I really don't see any evidence at all against Brad, so I find it very difficult to see people dismiss him so easily as 'playing the game'.
 
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The irony of all this is, is that I think this will be one of the cleaner tours in years with the combination of the landis investigations, and the fact that the afld and wada are working together (what happened last time afld tested at the tour - busts went through the roof)

That leads to the possibility that a clean rider could place very highly this year, and immediately be assumed to be a doper because of the riders below them on the gc (who could just be dopers missing their daily fix)
 
May 26, 2010
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latest Paul Kimmage article happens to be an interview with Wiggins;

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/cycling/article328940.ece

some extracts in case you cant link to it;


“Okay, now this is not a loaded question, but how do you explain that transformation?” I ask.

He doesn’t blink. “A lot of people — my peers and people I had been riding with at Cofidis [his team in 2006] — raised their eyebrows during the Tour last year and said it was impossible to do that transformation without the assistance of other things, and I can understand that.

“How did you deal with it?” I ask.

“My initial reaction was ... After the first week, a French journalist asked: ‘What do you say to people who are suspicious of your performances?’ and I reacted aggressively and angrily. It was the first time it really hit me that people were starting to doubt my performances. And then I didn’t really hear anything for two more weeks until after the final stage in Paris. I was in a nightclub at three o’clock in the morning and saw [Cervelo team rider] Brett Lancaster at the bar.

“We had raced on the track together for years and I went and said hello and he said, ‘Well done, Wiggo, blah-de-blah. I know a lot of the riders are saying you’re on drugs but I don’t think you are. You have always been a class rider on the track’. And I went away from him thinking, ‘So all the riders are saying I’m on drugs, are they?’ And I went home. I cracked it. I thought: ‘What is the f****** point in all that hard work and sacrifice if people are going to assume that?’ It really depressed me."

“So that was quite hard initially, but I can understand why people thought that, because I would have been, and still am in some respects, suspicious of some performances that I see. And at something like the Tour de France, to come from nowhere to fourth is just . . . I had jumped a huge, vast margin.”

To be a really good road racer, he needed to climb better; to climb better, he would have to lose weight. He had tipped the scales at more than 80kg (12Åst) in Beijing but began slimming down with a diet supervised by the British Cycling nutritionist, Nigel Mitchell.

“They summed it up as trying to transform from a petrol engine to a diesel,” Wiggins explains. “I had to change my whole way of eating and what I ate at certain times. Off the track, you just eat pasta every day and as much of it as you like, but with this, on rest days I’d have to have salads.

“We were gluten-free for the whole year with Garmin, so we just had white rice, no pasta. I cut salt out of my diet; I cut sugar out of my diet — I used to have so much sugar in my coffee — it was just simple things.”

The season was two months old when he first noticed the difference during the mountain stage of the Criterium International in March 2009. “In other years, I would always get dropped on the first climb and just about make the time trial in the afternoon, but I was still with the front group until 5k to go.”

He had weighed in that morning at 77kg and went to bed that night with a smile on his face. “I thought, ‘Blimey! I wonder if I lost another two kilos?’ And I kept going like that. I started the Giro [the Tour of Italy in May] at 75 kilos — three kilos lighter than I had ever raced before — and hung on for as long as possible on the first mountain stage. I was only about 40th, but everyone was saying it was brilliant. The next day I was 20th and it just went from there.

“[Teammate] Tom Danielson actually said to me: ‘The way you are climbing, there is no reason you couldn’t do top 10 at the Tour’. And I was like, ‘No, don’t be silly’, but he was like, ‘No, I'm serious. The climbs will suit you much better’. So I came away with this idea for the Tour ... I said [told journalists] I could finish top 20 but I knew I was capable of top 10.”
_____________

there's more about Vaughter's and Brailsford and cycling in general. The above is relevant to this thread...

OK


it might be an idea if people want to ask Kimmage questions to put to members of teamsky to email him at the sunday times. a lot of guys on here have extensive knowledge and could put some tasty questions his way. i suggest using your real name and not a forum one ; )
 

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TeamSkyFans said:
The irony of all this is, is that I think this will be one of the cleaner tours in years with the combination of the landis investigations, and the fact that the afld and wada are working together (what happened last time afld tested at the tour - busts went through the roof)

That leads to the possibility that a clean rider could place very highly this year, and immediately be assumed to be a doper because of the riders below them on the gc (who could just be dopers missing their daily fix)

Wiggins finished 4th last year.

If his performance drops this year, it will prove he was doped last year.
And if he finishes on the podium this year, it will mean he is doped of course.

I think the safest place for Wiggins to finish this year is 4th again.
 
Polish said:
Wiggins finished 4th last year.

If his performance drops this year, it will prove he was doped last year.
And if he finishes on the podium this year, it will mean he is doped of course.

I think the safest place for Wiggins to finish this year is 4th again.

So we should expect Lance on the third step this year?
 
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Cobblestones said:
So, it all comes back to ... gluten-free diet and less sugar in the coffee?

Sorry, but no.

i am sure that he's gonna tell all his rivals his methods that are not PED'd....you gonna call the guy the biggest hypocrite in the peleton.....Uniballer never dissed the dopers or doping, just repeated most tested bla blah..

where as Wiggins is outspoken about it and condemn it and dopers big time....

doesn't come across as that kind of guy to me...but no doubt you know more than i
 
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Polish said:
Wiggins finished 4th last year.

If his performance drops this year, it will prove he was doped last year.
And if he finishes on the podium this year, it will mean he is doped of course.

I think the safest place for Wiggins to finish this year is 4th again.

What i mean is, for instance someone like armstrong, without dope could end up finishing 10th, and an assumption will be made that anyone finishing about him must be doping.
 

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MacRoadie said:
So we should expect Lance on the second step this year?


I'm thinking the podium will be....
1) Basso...for The Double
2) Lance...in his sentimental "Goodbye Tour". Maybe a Podium Speech
3) Vino...winning the Combativity Jersey
4) Wiggins
can you imagine how exciting that would be.

Instead we will probably see

1) Alberto bang bang
2) A Schleck brother
3) Levi

Oh boy, can't wait for that one.
 
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TeamSkyFans said:
What i mean is, for instance someone like armstrong, without dope could end up finishing 10th, and an assumption will be made that anyone finishing about him must be doping.

Armstrong without juice, 10th, checkout his results before the cancer improved his performances...
 
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Benotti69 said:
i am sure that he's gonna tell all his rivals his methods that are not PED'd....you gonna call the guy the biggest hypocrite in the peleton.....Uniballer never dissed the dopers or doping, just repeated most tested bla blah..

where as Wiggins is outspoken about it and condemn it and dopers big time....

doesn't come across as that kind of guy to me...but no doubt you know more than i

He hasn't been all that outspoken lately...

Anyway, why would that be any indicator of whether someone dopes or not?

But let me ask a different question: is there any scientific evidence that a gluten free diet can do what Wiggins claims it did for him?

The weight loss is a good point. To go down from more than 80 kg to 77 kg gives you an improvement of power/weight of about 4% (assuming constant power). Slimming down to 75 kg would give an overall gain of 6-7% (still assuming no power loss).

These numbers make it plausible that a gain can be achieved compared to his competitors and obviously, this is the way he's explaining it to the world.

In my opinion, it leaves quite a few questions unanswered.

1) The explanation presupposes that he had all this extra weight to begin with (ok fine he was a track cyclist, so it could be true).

2) The weight loss itself is achieved and maintained by legitimate means. To bolster this point, he mentions the gluten free diet and less sugar with his coffee. Does it sound convincing?

3) He gains relatively more from a weight loss program than his competitors. Obviously, Wiggins implies that since he came from track cycling, he was in a different position than his competitors which had been on the road for many years. It sounds plausible on the surface until you remember that for the last one or two years, almost every cyclist has claimed to have discoveres weight loss as a mean to improve. Is everybody else lying? If not, how much of Wiggins's calculated 6-7% improvement survives compared to other riders? Half of it? Anything at all?

Alternatively, you can speculate whether Wiggins started a top notch blood doping program which gives a documented gain of 10% and more. Apparently, most of the peloton thinks the latter is true. But what do they know about cycling.
 
Cobblestones said:
H from more than 80 kg to 77 kg gives you an improvement of power/weight of about 4% (assuming constant power). Slimming down to 75 kg would give an overall gain of 6-7% (still assuming no power loss).

First he uses an 80 kg weight at Beijing, which is irrelevant. The obvious question is how much did he weigh when racing on the road. Later on he indirectly says that his lowest racing weight was 78 kg when he compares that to his 75 kg weight during the Criterium International. I have a hard time believing that his lowest racing weight was only 2 kg lighter than his track racing weight where weight does not matter that much, especially since that lowest weight should have occurred in the middle of a season during the last week of a grand tour.
 
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BroDeal said:
First he uses an 80 kg weight at Beijing, which is irrelevant. The obvious question is how much did he weigh when racing on the road. Later on he indirectly says that his lowest racing weight was 78 kg when he compares that to his 75 kg weight during the Criterium International. I have a hard time believing that his lowest racing weight was only 2 kg lighter than his track racing weight where weight does not matter that much, especially since that lowest weight should have occurred in the middle of a season during the last week of a grand tour.

I believe he raced the tour at 71kg, similar to what he will race it at this year, I think this year he has reached race weight gradually. Sky at the moment are listing his weight as 72kg
 
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Also, what strikes me as a little odd is the claims that based on power figures, previous teams had always known he had the potential. Why didn't they let Brad know so he could lose some weight? Losing weight's a piece of **** when you're motivated.

I'm surprised both Brad and his previous teams would let a Tour potential podium slip. They are hard to come by.
 
TeamSkyFans said:
I believe he raced the tour at 71kg, similar to what he will race it at this year, I think this year he has reached race weight gradually. Sky at the moment are listing his weight as 72kg

I question how honest he is about 78 kg being his lowest pre-2009 weight while racing on the road. I think I have seen a figure of 75 kg thrown around before.
 
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BroDeal said:
First he uses an 80 kg weight at Beijing, which is irrelevant. The obvious question is how much did he weigh when racing on the road. Later on he indirectly says that his lowest racing weight was 78 kg when he compares that to his 75 kg weight during the Criterium International. I have a hard time believing that his lowest racing weight was only 2 kg lighter than his track racing weight where weight does not matter that much, especially since that lowest weight should have occurred in the middle of a season during the last week of a grand tour.

Well, I just played with some of the numbers which were in the interview. I'm not claiming that any of these numbers are correct or all that relevant.

My point was that he is using weight loss as explanation for his improvement which on the surface could be plausible until you ask some serious questions.
 
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Cobblestones said:
He hasn't been all that outspoken lately...

Anyway, why would that be any indicator of whether someone dopes or not?

....
....
....
Alternatively, you can speculate whether Wiggins started a top notch blood doping program which gives a documented gain of 10% and more. Apparently, most of the peloton thinks the latter is true. But what do they know about cycling.

when you have been as vociferous as he has been, you leave it at that and get on with racing. otherwise give it up and write a book lambasting the sport as dirty.

i am not an apologist for Wiggins and not a supporter. He's english and I am not a particular fan of that nation.

Whether he's a doper, well WTF knows who is and who isn't of those who have not tested positive.

His improvements he claims are weight, added to better training and a better mental attitude.

Whether these are enough no one except a pro/Vaughters/Brailsford/Wiggins can answer.

I always felt that the Brit track cycling team under brailsford did an 'amazing' performance at the olympics and well we all know what 'amazing' suggests in cycling and any sport nowadays...

Kimmage will be doing his job as a journalist in the best professional capacity as i feel he has always done from reading his articles.

Whether him and Yates will get on is not Kimmage's problem. Might be good for Kimmage to put it to him about his past and being involved with Sky. Kimmage says he always starts with a blank sheet. I don't see this being any different. Doubt he's there to go after Uniballer and Hog, not his job. his job is to write about sky.

i'll be looking forward to his articles and seeing what and whether there are any comments from sky riders on twitter about him during the race...

Kimmage's history in writing about cycling is pretty impeccable and anyone trying to damage it without justification or evidence is doing the dopers a favour IMO.
 
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We can chase our tails on riders' weights forever. I lie about my weight to my bro-in-law just to try to encourage him to get too thin/keep drinking depending on which lie I tell - just so I can drop him on an old farts ride up the Cat and Fiddle or Madone.

So why a pro rider would tell the truth about their weight when there is so much at stake I do not know.

You just have to look at Wiggins to see he is a stack thinner on his upper body. PUrsuit and particularly team pursuit need a good bit of strength that you just dont need in a GT or even a GT prologue.

6kg on a 20km climb at 8% is about 4 minutes difference at 400W. Multiply that by 3 mountain top finishes and you have a heck of a difference.
 
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wiggens has been indoctinated and now talks the talk and walks the walk of a competitive doper. if he wants people to believe its all down to 3 kilograms then he is just like other gc dopers and full of his own spin.

if wiggens got done for doping, he is the type to go Flandis on everyone as well. i'd like to see that.
 
Polish said:
Wiggins finished 4th last year.

If his performance drops this year, it will prove he was doped last year.
And if he finishes on the podium this year, it will mean he is doped of course.

I think the safest place for Wiggins to finish this year is 4th again.

The Tour is much harder this year for a rider like Wiggins and there are more contenders. Finishing in the top 5 would be an improvement in performance and likewise a top 10 would not be indicative of doping last year.
 
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my guess is Brad is going to get dropped like a sack of stones on the Tourmalet by a group of about 6 riders, Contador, Vino, Armstrong, Kloden and the Schlecks. He is going to climb the mountain looking strong, calm and like adecent climber and then is going to throw about some really meaty allegations like "i was climbing superbly, and they just rode away, how can you compete with that without doping"
 
TeamSkyFans said:
my guess is Brad is going to get dropped like a sack of stones on the Tourmalet by a group of about 6 riders, Contador, Vino, Armstrong, Kloden and the Schlecks. He is going to climb the mountain looking strong, calm and like adecent climber and then is going to throw about some really meaty allegations like "i was climbing superbly, and they just rode away, how can you compete with that without doping"

Good on him :D Either that or a juiced up podium doesn't bother me!