Will Armstrong beat Sastre this year?

[Alpe d'Huez]

Yawn, Not facts Blowdeal, allegations. Facts in this context are those things that can be proven in a court of law beyond reasonable doubt.

This is a professional sport, governed by a set of agreed upon rules written into a contract. These rules are then applied to cases judged by the sport's governing bodies, and independent arbiters. If it were determined by a court of law, "in this context" as you say, Hamilton, Landis, Schumacher, Ricco, etc. would all have to be considered innocent.

 

[Bagster]

This is a professional sport, governed by a set of agreed upon rules written into a contract. These rules are then applied to cases judged by the sport's governing bodies, and independent arbiters. If it were determined by a court of law, "in this context" as you say, Hamilton, Landis, Schumacher, Ricco, etc. would all have to be considered innocent.

You are correct up to a point in that the riders you name signed their name to a contract and were then found to be in breach of that contract. For the latter two it is a moot point as they admitted to doping. The context of the point I was making though related to Armstrong and the claims against him. Claims that have never been substantiated through a court nor the sports governing bodies for that matter.

Further, for idiots such as Bigboat to state as a fact that Armstrong currently is doping using his own blood without a shred of evidence to support his claims other than the fact that Armstrong is riding better than Mr Bigboat finds acceptable, well I'm sorry but in my eyes he has no shred of credibility.

The reality is that, as I said, virtually all of the claims on the doping forum are pure allegation. Until such time that it is tested and substantiated, that is what it will remain. To claim otherwise is just pure nonsense

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You are correct up to a point in that the riders you name signed their name to a contract and were then found to be in breach of that contract. For the latter two it is a moot point as they admitted to doping. The context of the point I was making though related to Armstrong and the claims against him. Claims that have never been substantiated through a court nor the sports governing bodies for that matter.

Further, for idiots such as Bigboat to state as a fact that Armstrong currently is doping using his own blood without a shred of evidence to support his claims other than the fact that Armstrong is riding better than Mr Bigboat finds acceptable, well I'm sorry but in my eyes he has no shred of credibility.

The reality is that, as I said, virtually all of the claims on the doping forum are pure allegation. Until such time that it is tested and substantiated, that is what it will remain. To claim otherwise is just pure nonsense

This point you have made was discussed heavily last week and is in the Clinic part of the forum.
While I agree with some of your points, I would respectfully suggest the place to continue this discussion is in the Clinic.
The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures

 

[Bagster]

Care to name any of those cases? Wait...wait...crickets...wait. I thought so. If you went over to the doping forum you could find out what you don't know... Of course it is easier to remain ignorant and spew BS.

The Sunday Times libel case for one, which though it was settled out of court in terms of damages, the prelim court ruling was in favour of Armstrong.

The throwing out of the insurers claim in withholding the $5 mill bonus payment.

But speaking of spewing BS perhaps you could return the favour and list all the cases by either the sports governing bodies or any other court where Armstrong has been adjudged and sanctioned with regards to doping? Wait...wait..the silence is deafening!

He who alleges must prove...what have you proven? Only that you have the ability to quote the parts of my post that suits you and ignore the parts that you can't answer.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This point you have made was discussed heavily last week and is in the Clinic part of the forum.
While I agree with some of your points, I would respectfully suggest the place to continue this discussion is in the Clinic.
The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures

 

[BroDeal]

This point you have made was discussed heavily last week and is in the Clinic part of the forum.
While I agree with some of your points, I would respectfully suggest the place to continue this discussion is in the Clinic.
The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures

I suggested this several times. He refuses to go over there.

 

[issoisso]

Seriously, this forum needs moderators. These last posts should've been mode to "The Clinic" already

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I suggested this several times. He refuses to go over there.

Then just ignore him!

 

[Amsterhammer]

This point you have made was discussed heavily last week and is in the Clinic part of the forum.
While I agree with some of your points, I would respectfully suggest the place to continue this discussion is in the Clinic.
The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures

Nice template, Doc. I hope you won't mind if I copy it when the situation calls for it. And God yes, as I've been saying from day one of my short time here, this place certainly does need moderation. Sadly, it seems that Susan is the only mod to ever look in and she cannot do what needs doing on her own. So, until such time when CN gets its **** together about running a forum properly, we're just going to have to self-moderate as best we can.

This means that older, wiser heads will have to try and keep a lid on personal attacks and abuse as much as possible. From my observations here, most of the aggro starts when the usual hate/dope suspects spew their bile in places where it doesn't belong. A number of posters here seriously need a topic where they can vent their anti Lance bile instead of slipping their venom into topics where it has no business. And Boat must stop constantly posting his opinion that everybody is doped as fact. This winds many people up to the point of abuse, etc, especially new readers,

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Damn, I should have copyrighted it!

I actually think the forum works ok - and the introduction of the Clinic has helped tidy things up.
Lance probaly needs his own wing though!

 

[Amsterhammer]

Damn, I should have copyrighted it!

I actually think the forum works ok - and the introduction of the Clinic has helped tidy things up.
Lance probaly needs his own wing though!

The forum works ok if you accept that daily abuse sessions should be a normal part of this place. I don't. I frequent several other (moderated) forums regularly and personal abuse between posters is not tolerated anywhere.

Seriously, the main problem here is that the small gang of most vociferous Lance haters and 'everybody is doped' posters (the usual suspects) have become accustomed to 'getting away' with posting stuff that would not be tolerated on any properly moderated forum that I know of. And the **** that these people post on a daily basis turns off and winds up many other posters who then either just go away, or respond with outrage to the pure hatred spewed here by some.

I don't care where they put it, but there needs to be a separate topic where these sad people can vent their feelings about LA ad nauseum - and spare the rest of us.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The forum works ok if you accept that daily abuse sessions should be a normal part of this place. I don't. I frequent several other (moderated) forums regularly and personal abuse between posters is not tolerated anywhere.

Seriously, the main problem here is that the small gang of most vociferous Lance haters and 'everybody is doped' posters (the usual suspects) have become accustomed to 'getting away' with posting stuff that would not be tolerated on any properly moderated forum that I know of. And the **** that these people post on a daily basis turns off and winds up many other posters who then either just go away, or respond with outrage to the pure hatred spewed here by some.

I don't care where they put it, but there needs to be a separate topic where these sad people can vent their feelings about LA ad nauseum - and spare the rest of us.

I have to admit I am a forum Virgin so I don't know how other forums work. It would certainly help if the claws were taken in though.
But overall i agree with you - I am just here to learn more and hear different thoughts and opinions. There are some very good posters here that really know there stuff but I would love to see more people involved irrespective of their viewpoint.

 

[Bagster]

I suggested this several times. He refuses to go over there.

I've been to the clinic to check on Bro and the other patients. It is actually them that turn every discussion into an anti Lance rant or a doping discussion.

and stop playing the moderator Maserati.

Having said that I will refrain from REPLYING on threads in this forum in relation to doping stuff. Trouble is when anyone mentions Lance, Bro and his mates immediately flick to doping and so away it goes. They only have one view and anyone who doesn't agree with their myopic view of the world is immediately branded an idiot.

 

[Mellow Velo]

FFS. Go watch the race.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

So, any of the 60% of you who thought Sastre would beat Armstrong... what are you thinking today?

 

[byu123]

So, any of the 60% of you who thought Sastre would beat Armstrong... what are you thinking today?

 

[Baggins27]

So, any of the 60% of you who thought Sastre would beat Armstrong... what are you thinking today?

Only thing is chaps..... the Tour doesn't finish today. Still a long way to go. I wouldn't start the backslapping just yet!

 

[slowoldman]

So, any of the 60% of you who thought Sastre would beat Armstrong... what are you thinking today?

I am thinking there is quite a bit of racing yet, and Sastre is a proven Tour contender. So I still think there is a chance.

I do have to say I was impressed with the way Armstrong rode today. Monster work to try to gain the jersey...

 

[byu123]

I am thinking there is quite a bit of racing yet, and Sastre is a proven Tour contender. So I still think there is a chance.

I do have to say I was impressed with the way Armstrong rode today. Monster work to try to gain the jersey...

Anyone that stays with a train going fast enough to drop Popovych is riding impressive. Other than AC, LA, LL, and AK who were the other two Astana riders than hung on to the end? I thought it was Zubeldia and Rast but wasn't sure. If it was Rast, I take back everything I said about him being selected instead of Horner. Guess JB figured he needed a steam engine in Rast more than another climber in Horner.

 

[Baggins27]

Anyone that stays with a train going fast enough to drop Popovych is riding impressive. Other than AC, LA, LL, and AK who were the other two Astana riders than hung on to the end? I thought it was Zubeldia and Rast but wasn't sure. If it was Rast, I take back everything I said about him being selected instead of Horner. Guess JB figured he needed a steam engine in Rast more than another climber in Horner.

I'm sure on one of the updates I read (was in work so couldn't watch the stage today ) it said that Rast was dropped......

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Yes, and I seriously doubt Horner would have been dropped.
I still think it was a mistake to exclude him, but they're doing okay nonetheless.

 

[slowoldman]

Anyone that stays with a train going fast enough to drop Popovych is riding impressive. Other than AC, LA, LL, and AK who were the other two Astana riders than hung on to the end? I thought it was Zubeldia and Rast but wasn't sure. If it was Rast, I take back everything I said about him being selected instead of Horner. Guess JB figured he needed a steam engine in Rast more than another climber in Horner.

Zubeldia and Paulinho were the other two who finished with the fearsome foursome.... Popovych, Muravyev and Rast were dropped.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Kind of fun to see who thought Sastre would beat Armstrong last year....

No, because Sastre will win the Tour again.
phillop

No, Sastre will beat Armstrong (but Sastre will not win the Tour)
Action Biker, Alpe d'Huez, auscyclefan94, B.Rasmussen, boalio, clydesdale, Faserr, Ibanez, LugHugger, steelciocc, Stelvio, Thoughtforfood, weremichael, Zen Master

No, because Sastre will be in top 3 or 5 and Armstrong only in top 10
ak-zaaf, patswana, Polkadot09, slowoldman, TourLeTour, Zoncolan

No, because Sastre will be in top 5 or 10 and Armstrong will be only in top 20.
39*23t, Cobblestones, DenisMenchov, krebs303, nobody

No, Sastre will beat Armstrong.
Apollo, DJ Sprtsch, luckyboy, mr. tibbs, Rechtschreibfehler, red_explosions

 

[theswordsman]

I've been to the clinic to check on Bro and the other patients. It is actually them that turn every discussion into an anti Lance rant or a doping discussion.

and stop playing the moderator Maserati.

Having said that I will refrain from REPLYING on threads in this forum in relation to doping stuff. Trouble is when anyone mentions Lance, Bro and his mates immediately flick to doping and so away it goes. They only have one view and anyone who doesn't agree with their myopic view of the world is immediately branded an idiot.

I didn't know this thread existed, because I didn't show up until last Fall, but the sentiment from July 5 echoes what I encountered today.

 

[Berzin]

Armstrong will be ahead of Sastre in the Tour standings because Sastre is doing the Giro.

The Giro is going to wreck him for the Tour, and anyone else who attempts doing both in the same year.

As for "beating" anyone, with his current form and race calendar, the only people Armstrong will be beating will be the doping testers because he won't get caught.

It's clear he has decided on a doping program over actual riding to get him on form for the Tour.