Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[LaFlorecita]

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

 

[gooner]

Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

Not really, but I'm not going to get drawn into that discussion again.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

 

[dacooley]

if people love someone they are willing to forgive their idol anything (any amount of doping included) they'd demolish his enemies for. nonetheless, idealising contador in terms of doping or saying that his talent, character and consistency makes his doping background more legitimate is clearly senseless. that's the area of debate where people constantly confuse cause and effect.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

The known fact is so-called but yet you talk about Sky's doping in certainty terms. Lol.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

....surely? biggest fraud is ....most wins/most $ earned.........anything else

is just fans favouritism

Mark L

I guess.................. it is hardly

surprising

that you posted

............... what you posted............... considering............ your love for a
certain .....
team

The biggest fraud is the one who is most fraudulent. We have too little information to make an accurate assessment of a rider's level of fraud.
But if you want to keep believing Joaquim Rodriguez is a bigger fraud than Riccardo Ricco, be my guest.

 

[Metabolol]

For me, natural talent is definitely a criteria if discussing who is the biggest fraud. Some of you seem to have another definition of the term.

As for Alberto's natural talent level (and for other cyclists too), I admit that it's always going to be a speculative subject because we don't know when he started doping (including type of doping protocol, drug response etc) BUT overall I think there is certainly more things that indicate that he is clearly a bigger natural talent than someone as Froome.

 

[dacooley]

Re:

For me, natural talent is definitely a criteria if discussing who is the biggest fraud. Some of you seem to have another definition of the term.

As for Alberto's natural talent level (and for other cyclists too), I admit that it's always going to be a speculative subject because we don't know when he started doping (including type of doping protocol, drug response etc) BUT overall I think there is certainly more things that indicate that he is clearly a bigger natural talent than someone as Froome.

no doubt, but when this criteria engenders an abysm between a good-like creature and a guy who disgraces already many times disgraced cycling, it's nothing but one's fan favoritism - in a manner of speaking, my boy is a more deserved winner as i like him a lot and and he's a chosen one.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

The known fact is so-called but yet you talk about Sky's doping in certainty terms. Lol.

Becuase Sky have not 'tested positive' means little in a sport like pro cycling. They have done everything else the dopers have done and more! They are certainly cheating, without doubt.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

The known fact is so-called but yet you talk about Sky's doping in certainty terms. Lol.

Becuase Sky have not 'tested positive' means little in a sport like pro cycling. They have done everything else the dopers have done and more! They are certainly cheating, without doubt.

It was pointed out in the case of someone who says Sky are doping but refers to Contador as a "so-called" situation.

Sky may well be but it's a think rather than we know situation which is far less certain than what we know about Contador.

The natural talent argument is a load of tosh. This is just Contador fans who have their one rule for one and a different rule for another and are up in arms with opposing riders(*cough "Froome/Sky) who stop him from winning.

I consider those people who follow cycling with that logic, complicit in the problem with the sport.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

....surely? biggest fraud is ....most wins/most $ earned.........anything else

is just fans favouritism

Mark L

I guess.................. it is hardly

surprising

that you posted

............... what you posted............... considering............ your love for a
certain .....
team

The biggest fraud is the one who is most fraudulent. We have too little information to make an accurate assessment of a rider's level of fraud.
But if you want to keep believing Joaquim Rodriguez is a bigger fraud than Riccardo Ricco, be my guest.

The irony.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

Becuase Sky have not 'tested positive' means little in a sport like pro cycling. They have done everything else the dopers have done and more! They are certainly cheating, without doubt.

It was pointed out in the case of someone who says Sky are doping but refers to Contador as a "so-called" situation.

Sky may well be but it's a think rather than we know situation which is far less certain than what we know about Contador.

The natural talent argument is a load of tosh. This is just Contador fans who have their one rule for one and a different rule for another and are up in arms with opposing riders(*cough "Froome/Sky) who stop him from winning.

I consider those people who follow cycling with that logic, complicit in the problem with the sport.

What problem do you refer?

 

[Maxiton]

In that case Team Sky is the biggest fraud

If they're doping, of course.

In the case of Contador, we're talking about a known fact.

The known fact, so-called, is completely irrelevant.

The known fact is so-called but yet you talk about Sky's doping in certainty terms. Lol.

....surely? biggest fraud is ....most wins/most $ earned.........anything else

is just fans favouritism

Mark L

I hope you're ready to read. I'll tell you a) why Contador's positive for clen is, imo, irrelevant; b) why I talk about Sky doping as more or less a certainty; and, c) why this is not mere fan favoritism.

Today, in 2016, it's pretty much settled business that cyclesport and doping go hand in hand. They always have. Starting with the end of the Armstrong era and going back through the decades we have it on record that virtually the entire GC was doped. The missing bits, the GC riders whose doping is not documented, are few indeed; but given what is documented, and given as well the attitude of the sport as a whole towards doping, we can infer that while there may have been, literally, one or two or three exceptions - it's possible - the entire GC was doped. If there were exceptions, then, they prove the rule: it's a sport that relies on PEDs.

Fans and sponsors and teams alike regarded this fact with complete equanimity until the death of Tom Simpson in 1967. Since then, however, it's been kept increasingly on the down-low.

Keeping it on the down-low opened the sport to all kinds of corruption: intimidation, blackmail, bribery, sabotage, cover-ups, and race-fixing (though, admittedly, race-fixing has always had a role regardless). The UCI, which exists to govern the sport, was not immune from this corruption but complicit in it, due to its additional role of protecting and promoting the sport. Chosen, money-making riders such as Armstrong were protected; while their adversaries and lesser lights were popped. This served to prop up the money making while giving the impression of fighting PED use. Outside of the favored few, then, riders were subject to being caught, and sanctioned, if they stepped out of line, pissed off the wrong person, or simply made a mistake in implementing their own program.

After Armstrong - and after the interlude of Landis, which is its own story, one in which Verbruggen and Armstrong possibly had a hand - cycling had a new champion, Alberto Contador. Contador was an upcoming race leader of the classical European mold, and molded by the sport itself: talented, dedicated, solely focused on his sport. He kept his head down and his mouth shut and followed orders and in so doing met with great success. So far, so good. What had not yet been tested, though, or even forged, even after his first TdF win, was his true mettle as a champion. This finally happened when Armstrong decided to come back - to the team, it turned out, led by Contador himself.

Now this Spanish boy who had always kept his head down and followed orders faced a true dilemma. What is a champion to do when cycling's capo dei capi, the UCI's own favored son, Verbruggen and Pat's best partner, and BFF of his own team manager, comes back determined to usurp the young champion's role, which the capo dei capi feels is rightfully his and his alone? If the Spanish boy knuckles under he concedes to himself and everyone watching that the champions' role was never truly his and never can be. But if he defies the bosses he has a very clear inkling, this son of cycling, of what's in store.

Well, we know how he responded and how the story played out. We know he won that Tour and how, subsequently, the next year, his blood sample was sent off for extra-special, extraordinary scrutiny - which turned up one one-millionth of a gram of clenbuterol, a controlled substance. And so he was duly sanctioned.

In standing up to these creeps and their coercion, in insisting on his role as champion even despite implied consequences, Contador actually proved himself to be champion. Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders - for if it isn't our sport, whose is it? In defying them, Contador stole some fire from the mountain (to take a line from Steve Jobs) and brought it back to where it rightfully belongs: away from the corrupt creeps controlling the sport and its teams and its riders - back to those who make the sport.

In doing this he redeemed himself as a man, as an athlete, and as champion - and redeemed the honor of the sport, as well, even if only for a moment. He paid a price - the sanction - as he must have inferred he would; but this sanction, too, was redeemed - absolved - by what he achieved and reclaimed, for himself and for us.

Now the UCI has a new golden boy, a new money making machine: Rupert Murdoch, in the guise of the miraculous Sky team and its unlikely leader, Chris Froome. The Sky team and an entire nation of new, newly enthusiastic, naive, money spending fans.

Given the history, culture, context, and control of the sport as outlined above; and given as well their arguably suspect exploits and antecedents; and given additionally all the money being minted, and even national and corporate soft power being projected: it seems reasonable to look upon Sky with the most wary of eyes, and to question what those eyes think they see.

Cycling has a new golden boy, but as of now it has only one true champion: Alberto Contador.

 

[gooner]

What utter tosh if I ever saw it on this forum.

Contador was a happy beneficiary of the UCI getting involved until Seppelt and ARD forced their hand.

You say it's not fan favouritism and then say this:

Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders

Not me, sunshine.

And Contador has played the clean card more than most, telling Kimmage he has always spoken out against doping, saying he's always surrounded himself with people who have been anti-doping and not to mention sticking up his two extra fingers to signal the amount of times he has won GTs. In fact that is a two fingers up to the integrity of sport.

He's a fraud.

I genuinely worry for people who can't see the issue with thinking it's OK to decry what they see as doping with Sky and then at same time celebrate Contador's victories off into the sunset.

And no I'm not engaging in an endless discussion on this. It's not even up for debate. This is a clear cut issue.

I've learned a long time ago on this particular topic that some Contador fans are some of the worst sports fans to reason with.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

favouritism

hardly surprising that you posted ............... considering............ your love for a
certain .....
team

hook...line...sinker...right on cue....you think i'm a fraud? i'm still slow...but it's

not about me............have i ever expressed which my favourite team is?

i favour the belgium school of cycling.....so maybe? the quicksteppers....

Mark L

ps max ya did waste your time....i ignored.....

Lol.

 

[Maxiton]

What utter tosh if I ever saw it on this forum.

Contador was a happy beneficiary of the UCI getting involved until Seppelt and ARD forced their hand.

You say it's not fan favouritism and then say this:

Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders

Not me, sunshine.

And Contador has played the clean card more than most, telling Kimmage he has always spoken out against doping, saying he's always surrounded himself with people who have been anti-doping and not to mention sticking up his two extra fingers to signal the amount of times he has won GTs. In fact that is a two fingers up to the integrity of sport.

He's a fraud.

I genuinely worry for people who can't see the issue with thinking it's OK to decry what they see as doping with Sky and then at same time celebrate Contador's victories off into the sunset.

And no I'm not engaging in an endless discussion on this. It's not even up for debate. This is a clear cut issue.

I've learned a long time ago on this particular topic that some Contador fans are some of the worst sports fans to reason with.

I'm guessing, just guessing, you're a Sky fan. Fair enough. When your love for your team turns into love for cycling, let me know.

 

[gooner]

What utter tosh if I ever saw it on this forum.

Contador was a happy beneficiary of the UCI getting involved until Seppelt and ARD forced their hand.

You say it's not fan favouritism and then say this:

Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders

Not me, sunshine.

And Contador has played the clean card more than most, telling Kimmage he has always spoken out against doping, saying he's always surrounded himself with people who have been anti-doping and not to mention sticking up his two extra fingers to signal the amount of times he has won GTs. In fact that is a two fingers up to the integrity of sport.

He's a fraud.

I genuinely worry for people who can't see the issue with thinking it's OK to decry what they see as doping with Sky and then at same time celebrate Contador's victories off into the sunset.

And no I'm not engaging in an endless discussion on this. It's not even up for debate. This is a clear cut issue.

I've learned a long time ago on this particular topic that some Contador fans are some of the worst sports fans to reason with.

I'm guessing, just guessing, you're a Sky fan. Fair enough. When your love for your team turns into love for cycling, let me know.

Great comeback.

I have heard that one before. A johnny come lately to the sport.

 

[thehog]

What utter tosh if I ever saw it on this forum.

Contador was a happy beneficiary of the UCI getting involved until Seppelt and ARD forced their hand.

You say it's not fan favouritism and then say this:

Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders

Not me, sunshine.

And Contador has played the clean card more than most, telling Kimmage he has always spoken out against doping, saying he's always surrounded himself with people who have been anti-doping and not to mention sticking up his two extra fingers to signal the amount of times he has won GTs. In fact that is a two fingers up to the integrity of sport.

He's a fraud.

I genuinely worry for people who can't see the issue with thinking it's OK to decry what they see as doping with Sky and then at same time celebrate Contador's victories off into the sunset.

And no I'm not engaging in an endless discussion on this. It's not even up for debate. This is a clear cut issue.

I've learned a long time ago on this particular topic that some Contador fans are some of the worst sports fans to reason with.

I'm guessing, just guessing, you're a Sky fan. Fair enough. When your love for your team turns into love for cycling, let me know.

Great comeback.

To be fair on this forum you have declared Paula Radcliffe clean and told people to "stop their doping view of everything'. You told us Wiggins and Dan Martin are clean and their performances are in line with cycling cleaning up.

Its hard to take you seriously, especially when you present David Walsh has some form of literary genius.

To back all this up the other day you were trying to subvert discussion on Lord Coe, ADIDAS, corruption and put it onto on Real Madrid. Most confusing, its like you have something against the Spanish... or something.

 

[sniper]

for what it's worth, i agree with gooner that Contador is a major fraud enjoying uci protection. He's dodged multiple bullets with the aid of the Spanish federation as well. Hell, I remember even King Carlos and Luis Zapatero exerting pressure to get Contador off the hook.
But i would argue that Sky's obvious cheating is perhaps the single most important reason why Contador's popularity has nonetheless grown over the past few years - despite him being an obvious fraud.
Without Sky's hypocrisy, Contador would probably be a lot less popular and would probably be called out a lot more often.

David Walsh is the perfect case in point: he used to call out Contador, but his laughable Sky fanboyism leaves him no other option than to pretend Contador is clean champ.

 

[gooner]

To be fair on this forum you have declared Paula Radcliffe clean and told people to "stop their doping view of everything'. You told us Wiggins and Dan Martin are clean and their performances are in line with cycling cleaning up.

You mean like this:

Paul Kimmage ‏@PaulKimmage Jan 14
Shussssh, don't tell anyone this but I actually used to admire @paulajradcliffe

I gave Radcliffe the benefit of doubt before. So what? Did we know what we do now? I also think O'Sullivan should be getting her medals upgraded after what's come out with the Chinese runners. If anything comes out similar as with her, the same applies.

Its hard to take you seriously, especially when you present David Walsh has some form of literary genius.

Plenty of things I have disagreed with him on. I've said so on here.

To back all this up the other day you were trying to subvert discussion on Lord Coe, ADIDAS, corruption and put it onto on Real Madrid. Most confusing, its like you have something against the Spanish... or something.

In case you didn't notice, I never criticised Madrid or the Spanish. I criticised Adidas for their contrasting stance with FIFA and the IAAF. The new reported Madrid deal was to highlight how it dwarfed the IAAF sponsorship and that it was no big deal for them dropping them.

BTW, this is a Contador thread. Lets keep it on topic.

 

[gooner]

Re:

for what it's worth, i agree with gooner that Contador is a major fraud enjoying uci protection. He's dodged multiple bullets with the aid of the Spanish federation as well. Hell, I remember even King Carlos and Luis Zapatero exerting pressure to get Contador off the hook.
But i would argue that Sky's obvious cheating is perhaps the single most important reason why Contador's popularity has nonetheless grown over the past few years - despite him being an obvious fraud.
Without Sky's hypocrisy, Contador would probably be a lot less popular and would probably be called out a lot more often.

David Walsh is the perfect case in point: he used to call out Contador, but his laughable Sky fanboyism leaves him no other option than to pretend Contador is clean champ.

Fair enough with Walsh. He deserves the criticism considering his '07 quote.

I think even without Sky's success, we'd still see the same level of defence. It would still be a topic of discussion.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

for what it's worth, i agree with gooner that Contador is a major fraud enjoying uci protection. He's dodged multiple bullets with the aid of the Spanish federation as well. Hell, I remember even King Carlos and Luis Zapatero exerting pressure to get Contador off the hook.
But i would argue that Sky's obvious cheating is perhaps the single most important reason why Contador's popularity has nonetheless grown over the past few years - despite him being an obvious fraud.
Without Sky's hypocrisy, Contador would probably be a lot less popular and would probably be called out a lot more often.

David Walsh is the perfect case in point: he used to call out Contador, but his laughable Sky fanboyism leaves him no other option than to pretend Contador is clean champ.

Only the Spanish prime minister "exerted pressure" (if that's what you want to call it) the king did not get involved at all.
As for Walsh well I find it rather funny that his opinion on Contador depends on whether Contador is beating Froome or not.
As for gooner, I am unsure what the hell Alberto did during the 2012 Vuelta that pissed him off so badly but it caused him to flip from mildly anti-Sky to terribly pro-Sky and anti-Contador. Either way I stopped trying to make sense of it all a long while ago.

 

[LaFlorecita]

As for Contador yes he is a fraud (unlike most Sky fans I am not blind) because he is a doper. But I agree with Metabolol that it appears he has a fair dose of natural talent and I also agree with Metabolol that we cannot tell for sure. However I will defend him till my last breath if people start calling him the biggest fraud in cycling based on nothing but his massive palmares. Come back to me when you can prove that he only won those races because of the advantage he got from doping.

 

[Maxiton]

What utter tosh if I ever saw it on this forum.

Contador was a happy beneficiary of the UCI getting involved until Seppelt and ARD forced their hand.

You say it's not fan favouritism and then say this:

Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders

Not me, sunshine.

And Contador has played the clean card more than most, telling Kimmage he has always spoken out against doping, saying he's always surrounded himself with people who have been anti-doping and not to mention sticking up his two extra fingers to signal the amount of times he has won GTs. In fact that is a two fingers up to the integrity of sport.

He's a fraud.

I genuinely worry for people who can't see the issue with thinking it's OK to decry what they see as doping with Sky and then at same time celebrate Contador's victories off into the sunset.

And no I'm not engaging in an endless discussion on this. It's not even up for debate. This is a clear cut issue.

I've learned a long time ago on this particular topic that some Contador fans are some of the worst sports fans to reason with.

I'm guessing, just guessing, you're a Sky fan. Fair enough. When your love for your team turns into love for cycling, let me know.

Great comeback.

I have heard that one before. A johnny come lately to the sport.

Nothing wrong with being new to the sport. We've all been there. Eventually you'll catch on and be wiser for it.